Is Michael Phelps Really the Greatest Olympian Ever?

Eight gold medals. Seven world records. And most remarkably, transforming laps in a pool into must-see-TV. Michael Phelps has truly exceeded the hype and has derserved every accolade he's received. In slightly over thirty total minutes of swimming, Phelps defied our imagination about the athletically possible. Even NBC, so terribly awkward in its coverage of China, so self-censoring when broaching the politics of these games and so hackneyed when relaying the little soap opera vignettes about individual athletes--handled the Phelps story with gusto.

Now the only question left is the one without an answer: is Phelps "the greatest Olympian ever?" This is what's known as a "sports radio question." It's the kind of idiotic discussion point that has a commercial value precisely because it can be debated forever without any resolution. Phelps as "greatest Olympian" may turn out to be what finally supplants "Does Pete Rose belong in the Hall of Fame?" on countless call-in shows and in corner bars.

Since every sports yakker on the street has his or her opinion on this, I might as well give mine. The case for Phelps lies in the unprecedented eight gold medals (and the record fourteen for his career overall), his remarkable mental and physical endurance and the fact that he bested the greatest swimmers in the world using a variety of strokes. In an era of sports specialization, he is swimming's Bo Jackson.

And the case against Phelps as Pharaoh of the Games? Most obviously, the number of medal wins (what some commentators have called "the Great Haul of China") is a bogus metric since swimming has many more events in which to win gold medals. No track star would ever be given the chance to compete in as many and as varied a number of races as Phelps. Marathoners of course can win only one, so the medal count argument is thin.

Then there is the problem with the sport itself. Swimming has become a victim of its own success at the Beijing games, under a cloud of suspicion because of the sheer number of records that have fallen. No one is alleging that Phelps or other swimmers are using any illegal performance enhancers. It's the legal ones that are raising the questions.

The theory most bandied about is that the new Speedo Lasik suits turn normal men and women into aquatic hybrids, giving them everything but gills. Even the fabric is juiced. What if Phelps isn't the best swimmer. What if he just has the best tailor?

But it's hard to be too cynical. If you told me a month ago that I'd be watching swimming, in rapt attention, I would have sued you for defamation. If you told me baseball and football stadiums full of people would be watching and cheering on the butterfly stroke on jumbotrons, I wouldn't have believed it.

But is he the best Olympian ever?

For me, I stand with former NBA star and commentator Charles Barkley. When the Round Mound of Sound was asked that very question, he named two others: Tommie Smith and John Carlos. Sounds good to me.

Comments (45)

1. it IS a rather pointless question. i just hope the guy never runs into that crazy chick from those phone service commercials. she's scary.

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 08/18/2008 @ 12:18pm

2. So we ignore the "metric" of "medals won" AND "records broken"?

   And go with "Who made the best Olympic political statement!"????

   So, if I win a bronze in Men's Beach Volleyball, but call out for a "Free Tibet" at the ceremony....I'm the best athlete?!?!??!?

   Posted by Maskdelta at 08/18/2008 @ 12:18pm

3. He is the greatest swimmer,but he would have to medal in the other sports in order to be the best Olympian.

   Posted by i'm nobody at 08/18/2008 @ 12:21pm

4. nichols observation about how the fact that things have changed was great.

   the new batman movie just surpassed star wars in box office reciepts - not adjusted for inflation (but how does one then guage the effect of upcoming dvd releases?).

   any all time records in baseball must be guaged in terms of the longer season. football and hoops too...

   and if such considerations make comparisons of all time greats murky within a specific sport...so much more between different sports...

   i'm still thinking old jim thorpe was pretty amazing...didn't they posthumuously give back his medals a few years ago?

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 08/18/2008 @ 12:38pm

5. This is a question that has no answer. Here is the core of the questions.

   What makes a great Olympian?

   Answer that and you will know if Phelps is the greatest.

   Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 12:58pm

6. "So, if I win a bronze in Men's Beach Volleyball, but call out for a "Free Tibet" at the ceremony....I'm the best athlete?!?!??!?"

   The author is not saying that Tommie Smith and John Carlos are the best athletes. Obviously. Come on. The author is plainly just passing along--with approval--Barkley's mischievous play on the ambiguity of the term "greatest."

   The whole point of the article is that how we answer the question comes down to how we decide to define greatness. The Barkley allusion makes the point quite cleverly.

   Posted by BlueSpark at 08/18/2008 @ 1:00pm

7. DAVE ZIRIN,

   Your question is irrelavent since each athelete achieves his own special niche depending on his achievements. I suspect your article was just another excuse to bash the mainstream, in this case Mainstream Media. I wonder, if you woke up tomorrow and were given the reins, what would YOU do differently, while still maintaining your audience and profit margin?

   Posted by william.harry13 at 08/18/2008 @ 1:03pm

8. an odd question, but what is your view on capoeira qualifying as an Olympic sport? It is heavily athletic, internationally very popular, falls into the same rough realm as Judo, and would be a specifically South American or even West African contribution to the pantheon of sports. Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 12:49pm

   I wouldn't consider this in the same realm as Judo. Judo is a fighting art. Capoeria is a dance. I've SEEN capoeria dancers try to use it to fight people who perform real fighting arts. It generally quickly gets knocked down. I even saw a Tae Kwon Do artist against a Capoeria dancer, Tae Kwon Do generally is considered to be one of the weaker of the martial arts because of flourish and wide telegraphed moves, even he bested the capoeria dancer without really trying too hard.

   Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 1:24pm

9. Also. For Sirin. You cite the Speedo as a reason for him not being great. But EVERYONE is wearing it. So it's not an advantage to him. He is doing it of his own strength. Look at every swimmer out there. They are all wearing that same suit. So it is not an advantage to him.

   Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 1:25pm

10. Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 08/18/2008 @ 1:17pm

    You're more upity than usual.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 1:27pm

11. What makes a great Olympian is someone whose performance sets a new standard of excellence. While one can certainly justify a conclusion that Phelps has done that, he is not my choice for greatest Olympian (at least one of his golds was more attributable to one of his teammates).

    The greatest Olympians were (not in any order) are Tommie Smith, not just for the protest but for winning the gold in I believe world record time with a bad hamstring pull; Abebe Bekele, the two time marathon champion; Edwin Moses, Rafer Johnson, Bob Beamon, the 1968 long jump gold medalist for jumping a distance not deemed possible; Jesse Owens; and Wilma Rudolph, whose great victories redefined women athletic accomplishments in the US and also was a powerful statement against racism.

    Posted by SSaltzlaw at 08/18/2008 @ 1:29pm

12. Also, is the qualification as a sport based on knocking someone's teeth out? Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 1:32pm

    No. Swimming is a sport. So is volleyball. Track. Diving. Curling. Tennis. Etc.

    I am talking about martial arts. You are equating it to Judo, a martial art. It is not a martial art. Most martial arts were used on the battlefield before they were what they are now.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 2:14pm

13. cccomof01: you seem pretty hostile. perhaps you need to get over the fact that not everyone is big on NBC still. wrt capoeira, your repeated use of the word "dancer" seems intended to convey contempt, kind of an over-the-top and unsolicited insult, itself premised in your inability to (apparently) perceive the value of any martial art beyond its apparent combat value as practiced in (it sounds like) a televised "mixed martial arts" program of some sort. i think i'll steer clear of you for a while - Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 1:35pm

    Actually I think quite the opposite. I have taken a few martial arts. Including Tai Chi, which is yes a martial art, but it is more focused inward than outward. I have also taken Ai Ki Do which is more about the movement and flow of energy than it is about "knocking someone's teeth out."

    I also have no problem with dancers. I use the term dancer repeatedly to emphasize that is not a martial art. I am using that term to differentiate between a martial art and a form of dance. It is like when people point to Jackie Chan as a martial artist. He studied Chinese Opera. He knows theatrical martial arts. There is a difference.

    That's why I use the term dancer so much. Just to differentiate. We aren't talking about Capoeira as a sport we are talking about it as a martial art. That's what you implied when you equated it to Judo.

    If you want to speak of it as a sport then yes it is very difficult. VERY difficult. I could never do it like the true masters of it do it because it takes a strength and balance beyond the normal person.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 2:21pm

14. Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 1:35pm

    Also I tend to not watch mixed martial arts programs. I find them boring. They all use basically two styles of combat. Brazilian Ju Jitsu and Muay Thai. While both of these are very impressive fighting arts it essentially equates to watching kickboxing and wrestling at the same time. I prefer to see some real variance. Look up on youtube the video of the Shaolin Monk in competition with a Tae Kwon Do fighter. That is a true match up. Shaolin Monks and their combat styles impress me the most. They find a spiritual center that allows them to do things that are almost inhuman. I also like that fact that their art is a spiritual pathway for them and is only ever used in defense of their temples.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 2:25pm

15. i think i'll steer clear of you for a while - Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 1:35pm

    You of course took a small statement I made with a lack of context and made a broad generalization about me knowing little nothing about me as a person. I have multiple times stated the amazing performance of athletes in Gymnastics, Swimming, Volleyball, I learned a lot about Synchronized Swimming last night that I didn't know. But you ignored all of that in order to make your statement without any semblance of fact to back it up.

    " perhaps you need to get over the fact that not everyone is big on NBC still. "

    I don't care if you don't like NBC. I care when people base their dislike in either a lie or a complete misjudgment. Many people complain about Olympic coverage and their complaints have not held up as true. That whole article about Usain Bolt not being broadcast was proven untrue. THAT is why I choose to defend NBC. Dislike whatever you want, I don't care but do it for the right reasons don't do it based on something that is not factual.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 2:30pm

16. Posted by BlueSpark at 08/18/2008 @ 1:00pm

    It's a SPORTS. Phelps is winning more events and breaking more records...ergo by the criteria of "sports" a claim could be made that he's "the best" or "one of the best" "Olympians".

    Smith and Carlos went out and did the black power salute. By the criteria of "political activism" they could be considered of some merit if you like.

    But my analogy stands, does Mr Zirin think that the definition of "greatness" in a SPORTING event...is your POLITICAL activism?

    Why not apply that to other things? If I can run a 4 minute mile, I am a better candidate for Senate than somebody who can't. If I hold a popular opinion on the environment, I'm a better "tennis star" (though I can barely hit or play for an hour) than Bjorn Borg was.

    Posted by Maskdelta at 08/18/2008 @ 2:36pm

17. Look up on youtube the video of the Shaolin Monk in competition with a Tae Kwon Do fighter.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 2:25pm

    That was cool.

    Posted by Benchrest at 08/18/2008 @ 2:37pm

18. See this is my problem with everyone complaining about NBC. They wrote a whole article about how the Usain Bolt clip was never broadcast in America and then used that to say that NBC's coverage is biased and doesn't cover anything that an American is not in. That entire article was disproven by 4 people saying that they saw Usain Bolt run. If it is true that NBC did not broadcast the Usain Bolt clip then it is not true that NBC isn't broadcasting anything without an American in it. My point of argument is not about a dislike for NBC it is about the facts. Their facts are wrong. So people can complain all they want. But I want to make sure that they know that they are complaining irrationally because what they are complaining about isn't true.

    I don't blame you for your dislike of network television. I rarely turn on the TV. I generally only watch movies and the science channel.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 2:38pm

19. That was cool. Posted by Benchrest at 08/18/2008 @ 2:37pm

    I have never seen anyone move that fast. He literally touches every kick the Tae Kwon Do fighter throws and only attacks once.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 2:39pm

20. Oh by the way Zero can you post the video of the Capoeira person you saw sweep someone off their feet. I have been searching long and hard for a Capoeira video where they fight another martial art using solely Capoeira and win. I researched that topic a long time ago because Capoeira has been stated by some to be the most dangerous martial art in the world but I have yet to see it. So I would love to be proved wrong.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 2:53pm

21. dude, bruce jenner, 1976.

    decathelete par extraordinaire....

    phelps can swim, but can he throw a javelin? shotput?

    can he run a marathon?

    Posted by darladoon at 08/18/2008 @ 3:06pm

22. and what about those people who run from death valley to mount whitney? it goes from 118 degrees to 10 degrees, over 100 miles, and 16,000 elevation change...

    i know it's not the olympics, but we should widen the discussion to include all-round athletes in all kinds of different sports competitions....

    Posted by darladoon at 08/18/2008 @ 3:08pm

23. I have never seen anyone move that fast. He literally touches every kick the Tae Kwon Do fighter throws and only attacks once.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 2:39pm

    That's why I never flip anybody off while driving.

    With my luck a Shaolin monk would rip my finger off and stick it in my ear.

    Posted by Benchrest at 08/18/2008 @ 3:19pm

24. wait till phelps is on dancing with the stars.........

    that will certainly prove the naysayers wrong.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/18/2008 @ 3:44pm

25. Posted by Benchrest at 08/18/2008 @ 3:19pm

    At least you would have a story to tell eh? How many people get to encounter Shaolin Monks on a daily basis.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 3:49pm

26. "does Mr Zirin think that the definition of "greatness" in a SPORTING event...is your POLITICAL activism?"

    No. The answer is no. He doesn't think that. That's what I said before.

    Posted by BlueSpark at 08/18/2008 @ 4:00pm

27. Posted by BlueSpark at 08/18/2008 @ 4:00pm

    He SAID "sounds good to me" when Smith and Carlos were offered up.

    By what OTHER criteria is Mr Zirin offering, BUT political activism? Did Carlos and Smith win multi-medals in multi-events?

    Posted by Maskdelta at 08/18/2008 @ 4:44pm

28. Since my attempt at asking a civil question of general sort did not produce the results I had hoped for, I'll just let it go - Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 4:30pm

    I wasn't attacking your question you seem to be grossly overreacting and misstating my intent. You equated Judo and Capoeira. My intent was to address that. Of course now you have used that as some made up fodder to say that that somehow means I don't want cultural expansion in the Olympics which is completely ignoring huge portions of my posts.

    I never once said Capoeira couldn't be an Olympic sport I said that it should not be equated with Judo. If you consider that to be somehow attacking you then I apologize. It's not my intent. My intent is to address the equation of Capoeira as a martial art, not as a sport. As I repeatedly said and which you also ignored in my posts.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 5:02pm

29. 'reasonable and civil question only to have someone start shrieking at me about how she saw"

    Last I checked I'm male by the way.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 5:03pm

30. Certainly if there is room for Greco-Roman wrestling, or Judo - both athletic endeavors originating with specific cultural or ethnic groups - then South America or even Africa can be represented in terms of a worthy athletic pursuit originating with them. This is more about widening the cultural embrace of sports in the Olympics than it is about who is better, the Shaolin Monk or a Muay Thai practicioner. Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 4:13p

    I never once said it shouldn't be in the Olympics.

    "i think you are kind of making a mountain out of a molehill of your own creation Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 4:05pm"

    All I talked about was whether Capoeira was a martial art not. Which as a practitioner of martial arts from Tai Chai Chuan to Krav Maga I enjoy discussing with people. Sorry if that bothers you.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 5:12pm

31. Now that is why I love reading on the off-color leftist sites. THERE ARE NO SURPRISES! Its a celebration of all the Racist, Seperatist, and Haters of this world as moral ethical models to be idolized! Posted by RedRiver_. at 08/18/2008 @ 4:29pm

    You mean liek Pat Robertson, Falwell, Strom, Helms?

    Oh wait.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 5:14pm

32. Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 5:55pm

    It would be a cool Olympic event with all of the people around playing the music. The choices of music would be interesting too. I wonder if people would divest themselves of the traditional music and go for something different or if everyone would stick to the more traditional music. It would definitely be an interesting sport and it would be cool to see something come out of South America into the Olympics.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 6:42pm

33. Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 7:23pm

    It would be fun to watch for sure.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 8:04pm

34. Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 7:23pm

    If you enjoy martial arts I recommend a show called Fight Science that was on the History Channel but you could probably google video it.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 8:05pm

35. Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/18/2008 @ 7:46pm

    Maybe you will be able to vote for him by the end Happy.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/18/2008 @ 8:05pm

36. Starting with the highest point earning Gold Medal Men's Decathlon Winners from the early Olympic era through the 1970's, the best overall athletes are: Jim Thorpe Jim Bausch Rafer Johnson Nicolai Avilov These men all earned over 8400 points in winning the Decathlon. Bruce Jenner got close at 8392

    Since the 1980's, all of the Decathlon winners have scored over 8400 points, including: Daley Thompson Christian Schenk Robert Zemlick Dan Obrien Erki Nool Roman Seberle

    Ladies, I hate to be sexist, but I consider the Decathlon to be the highest and best competition in all Olympic sport.

    But closest to it is the Women's Heptathlon. Only one woman has scored over 7000 points since its inception in 1984. She did it twice in 1988 and 1992: Jackie Joyner-Kersey

    With all due respect to Michael Phelps as well as Olympians in all other disciplines, these competitions demonstrate more athleticism. All men and women participants in these two events deserve much more attention than they currently receive.

    My personal favorite was Bob Mathias, but he only scored 7139.

    Posted by HunterGatherer at 08/18/2008 @ 8:24pm

37. Call me sentimental, but my favorite Olympians are the ones who have no chance to win a medal. I love watching the opening and closing ceremonies and seeing the participants who are glowing with joy just because they are olympians. It seems to me that they love the games for all the corny reasons we do--they are representing their countries in peaceful competition, where they are the best in their countries and the winners are the best in the world. One of my favorite Olympic moments was when Katerina Witt was asked why she participated, late in her career, when she had little chance to win a medal, and she said she loved being part of the games.

    To me all those folks are the greatest, plus all the participants in the Special Olympics. The glory in the effort is the best part.

    Posted by charliemartel at 08/18/2008 @ 8:39pm

38. Call me sentimental, but my favorite Olympians are the ones who have no chance to win a medal. I love watching the opening and closing ceremonies and seeing the participants who are glowing with joy just because they are olympians. It seems to me that they love the games for all the corny reasons we do--they are representing their countries in peaceful competition, where they are the best in their countries and the winners are the best in the world. One of my favorite Olympic moments was when Katerina Witt was asked why she participated, late in her career, when she had little chance to win a medal, and she said she loved being part of the games.

    To me all those folks are the greatest, plus all the participants in the Special Olympics. The glory in the effort is the best part.

    Posted by charliemartel at 08/18/2008 @ 8:39pm

39. There is a difference between being a great Olympian and a great athlete. Phelps is certainly an incredible athlete in a very brutal sport in terms of its training. Zirin has a point, though, about greatest Olympian because that embodies some spirit of the games, which has something to do with promoting a better world. That is unwieldy as well, but it Smith and Carlos, by the standards of The Nation (and mine), did do that. In the end it's like judging figure skating: points given for complete subjectivity...and that's before the Soviet judges.

    Posted by onthehelm at 08/18/2008 @ 8:43pm

40. I dont like comparing sports he is greatest Olympian in swimming definitely. I'm always hesistant to say soeone is the greatest olympian or athlethe without using their sport as a caveat. Besides isnt there a category where athlethes compete in different sports I would think having someone like that in a number of diverse sports would be the closest we have to saying someone is the greatest olympian.

    Carol

    Posted by harriscrl3 at 08/18/2008 @ 10:40pm

41. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/sports/olympics/19protest.html?hp

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/19/2008 @ 01:46am

42. Who supplied the power to run those clocks?

    [Tue Aug 19, 3:21 AM ET

    BEIJING (AFP) - Eighteen miners are confirmed dead after a gas explosion ripped through a coal mine in northeast China, the State Administration of Work Safety said Tuesday.

    The accident happened Monday at Baijiagou Coal Mine in Faku county, Liaoning province, the safety agency said in a brief statement.

    It said 81 miners were in the mine at the time of the blast, with 56 escaping unhurt and seven still missing.

    China's coal mines are among the most dangerous in the world, with safety standards often ignored in the quest for profits and the drive to meet demand for coal -- source of about 70 percent of the country's energy.

    Nearly 3,800 people died in Chinese coal mines last year, according to official figures, although independent monitors say the real figure was likely far higher as many accidents are covered up.]

    Posted by crabwalk at 08/19/2008 @ 07:34am

43. you're right crabs,

    the greatest olympian this year is the chinese peasant.

    able to hurdle corrupt bureaucrats,

    able to run faster than a dam project,

    oops,

    gotta go.

    crabs, can you finish that for me?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/19/2008 @ 10:24am

44. "He SAID "sounds good to me" when Smith and Carlos were offered up.

    By what OTHER criteria is Mr Zirin offering, BUT political activism? Did Carlos and Smith win multi-medals in multi-events?"

    I explained all of this in my first post. Read it again.

    If you think that the argument being presented in this article is "They made political protests; therefore, they are the best athletes" you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

    Posted by BlueSpark at 08/19/2008 @ 11:52am

45. ccc: I don't get broadcast cable or network TV, by choice, but I ran into Fight Science online. It seemed like interesting thing to see on DVD, in particular, because one of the subjects, Stewart Smith, authored a physical training book that has influenced a lot my personal workouts. Posted by Zero at 08/18/2008 @ 8:24pm

    Yeah. It's a very very interesting show. It shows the amount of power we hold inside of us and some of the amount of punishment our bodies can take if we can train them to properly do it. I would highly recommend it. The ninjitsu section on balance is really cool to see.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/19/2008 @ 12:02pm