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RedditSo how, exactly, did the United States come to slaughter nearly a hundred Afghans, two-thirds of whom were children aged three months to sixteen years, while they slept? And what does it mean?
US officials say they're investigating, while staunchly maintaining that the raid killed twenty-five "militants." But Afghan officials, local residents, and the United Nations are counting scores of bodies, and it is feared that many more might be buried udner the rubble. (It's not unusual for American planes to bomb civilian gatherings and wedding parties in Afghanistan, but the many dead this time may represent the highest single toll in any atrocity since the start of the war.)
What happened? The Post, happily carrying water for the Bush administration, quotes a US official -- who provides zero evidence for his claim -- saying that the Taliban deliberately fed bogus intelligence to the United States:
A U.S. official in Washington, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the Taliban has become adept at spreading false intelligence to draw U.S. strikes on civilians. "The fact is that the Taliban now has pretty good insight into where we're picking up information and how we're developing it into actionable intelligence," the official said. "They've figured out a way to misguide us."
The Times, on the other hand, quotes members of the Afghan parliament saying that bitter tribal rivalries, not the Taliban, fed false intelligence to the trigger-happy US Air Force:
How the military came to call in airstrikes on a civilian gathering is unclear. Two members of Parliament, Mr. Safi and Maulavi Gul Ahmad, who is from the area, said the villagers blamed tribal enemies for giving the military false intelligence on foreign fighters gathering in the village.
My own guess is that US intelligence in Afghanistan is so ridiculously bad that blaming either the Taliban (which isn't that clever) or tribal rivalries won't wash. Somewhere, a US Air Force commander ordered planes carrying dumb, 2000-pound bombs into action based on, well, pretty much nothing. And they've done that repeatedly.
The Guardian says that the death of the sixty children and other civilians is the "final straw" for the government of Hamid Karzai. We'll see. Karzai fired two top Afghan army commanders for their role in the attack, and he says he will demand a status-of-forces agreement with the United States that will provide greater Afghan control over the US bombing campaign. Meanwhile the entire country is in an uproar, and there are demonstrations against the United States. According to Xinhua, "The gruesome incident prompted hundreds of Afghans in the affected area to take to the streets, chanting anti-America slogans." In other words, rather than killing dozens of Taliban, the attack may have created scores of recruits for the movement.
By all rights, this ought to be a turning point for the Afghan war. The solution? It has two parts: first, the new government in Pakistan has to chip away at the Taliban bases in that country, and cut off the covert ties between subversive Pakistani military officials and the Islamic fundamentalists among the Pashtun in both countries, and second, the United States and NATO should get out and let the regional powers help Afghanistan deal with its problems--that means Pakistan, India, Russia, and Iran.
RSS
Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/27/2008 @ 11:10am
Sooooo...shouldn't we account for that, HAPP?
I'm not saying it happened the way, Mr Dreyfuss is saying it happened...but it happened.
And I think it's what you get when you're the "red-headed step-child" war...ignored by the Administration since the Iraq invasion, which is too bad because it would have been the war we could have quickly won, kept the peace, and maybe "inspired democracy in the Middle East"....if not for ideologues driven to throw Afghanistan to the side to get to their "real goal"!
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/27/2008 @ 11:24am
ROBERT DREYFUSS
What a despicable way to headline a tragedy. How do you think the guys who made the mistake would feel if they saw your copy?
Why do you phrase it like that? Because you know most people only read the headlines, and in this way you try to manipulate people to your own agenda.
You are lower than Grand Canyon Snakeshit, and I truly hope you:
A. Get caught in an alley by the pilots.
B. Get to go on a hunting Trip with Dick Cheney
TO THE NATION: This is the type of Garbage you allow on your blogs?
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/27/2008 @ 11:40am
ROBERT DREYFUSS
What a despicable way to headline a tragedy. How do you think the guys who made the mistake would feel if they saw your copy?
Why do you phrase it like that? Because you know most people only read the headlines, and in this way you try to manipulate people to your own agenda.
You are lower than Grand Canyon Snakeshit, and I truly hope you:
A. Get caught in an alley by the pilots.
B. Get to go on a hunting Trip with Dick Cheney
TO THE NATION: This is the type of Garbage you allow on your blogs?
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/27/2008 @ 11:41am
This whole thing stinks all the way back to Bush! How convenient this many days before an election. After all, this is how Bush got re-elected.....scaring idiots into believing switching Presidents in the middle of a war.........sound familiar. I know mistakes happen or even bad intell some times but this seems over the top! This makes are military seem inept and worse which we know is farthest from the truth! Why make this call now?
Posted by psahome at 08/27/2008 @ 11:48am
You mean they led BushCo astry? *gasp* say it ain't so..... Not like Curveball at all, right. Perhaps more appropriate is when AREN'T the terrorists misleading Dumbo and Dickrod.
As for the segue line from the main page ' So much for Obama's "right war." ' For shame Dreyfuss....how can you hang the actions of BushCo on the man running for President. Are you assuming he's in charge already? Perhaps the name of the blog should be "The Doofus Report"?
Posted by leftofcenter at 08/27/2008 @ 11:56am
Dreyfuss shows his anti-American hatred more and more with each posted article.
I think it's time to relegate him to the ignored where he belongs.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/27/2008 @ 12:14pm
"US Massacres Afghan Kids | So much for Obama's "right war." Robert Dreyfuss "
Obama has no ability to alter US actions in Afghanistan. It IS the right war...but sadly carried out in inept Bush fashion at present.
Since Obama is not mentioned in the article, perhaps some stupid editor added the tag line to get people to read an article that would otherwise not be read by many. False advertising!
Posted by LizardofOz at 08/27/2008 @ 12:30pm
Seems a perfectly fitting tactic by the enemies of modern weaponry who care not a whiff about civilian deaths......par for the course for Islamic nutcases!
Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/27/2008 @ 11:10am
Happy, Misinformation is nothing new in the military realm. There's a term called MIJI in radio. It stands for meaconing, interference, jamming and intrusion. During the Vietnam war, the Vietnamese got to the point where they could mimic radio calls into air force bombers and or ground troops and actually would call in bombing coordinates on our troops. So, they had us dropping bombs on our troops and in some cases had our troops firing on each other. A smart enemy. Never underestimate your enemy.
What is going on in Afghanistan is a form of the same thing. That is why the intelligence people have to actually have some intelligence before acting, and not act like John friggin Wayne.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/27/2008 @ 12:30pm
Y'know, the incapability of right-wing trash to conceive of the fact that their precious war machine churns up a fair amount of innocent civilian pulp whenever it's turned on never fails to astonish.
Posted by Pimpcane24 at 08/27/2008 @ 12:34pm
I think it's time to relegate him to the ignored where he belongs.---Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/27/2008 @ 12:14pm
So you're never going to post to another "The Dreyfuss Report" thread again???
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/27/2008 @ 1:10pm
So you're never going to post to another "The Dreyfuss Report" thread again???
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/27/2008 @ 1:10pm
We can only wish.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/27/2008 @ 1:37pm
Chip, if you're upset about the way that the headline is phrased, how would you rewrite it? "US Liberates Afghan Kids From Unbearable Burden of Existence?" When you bomb and kill a large group of innocent people, what other word can be used to describe it besides "massacre?"
Posted by cgmaisano at 08/27/2008 @ 1:42pm
You think allowing regional powers Iran and India to shore up the Afghani government will reduce tensions in Afghanistan. Karzai should be asking the Indian Air Force to help with hits on Taliban terrorists rather than NATO. Hey, that's a great way to start a shooting war between Pakistan and India. Any more great ideas, Dreyfuss--all of course meant to make sure no white man has to shed any blood for stability in Afghanistan. No the solution is what Obama has said all along--back off aerial strikes which kill innocent Afghanis, provide more ground troops so that Afghani government outposts are not sitting ducks and so that NATO can train Afghani national forces, and use more troops to provide the security needed to carry out actual development projects.
Posted by hartal at 08/27/2008 @ 2:47pm
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/27/2008 @ 1:37pm
Just curious as to how LVLIB proposes "putting on ignore" a "Nation" writer?!??!?!
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/27/2008 @ 3:28pm
CGMAISANO,
How 'bout reporting it like it was, that would be a nice change. "Tragedy of Friendly Fire Air Strike" "Faulty Intell Results in Civilian Deaths".
Once the city of Bamiyan (speaking of Afghanistan) was leveled and its citizens systematically killed when the battle for the city resulted in the death of the attackers grandson. The people were slaughtered regardless of age. Even the dogs and cats were killed (1221 AD.) The Afghans know what a macssacre is. The despicable thing about Dreyfuss is, so does he.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/27/2008 @ 3:31pm
So Chip you propose that our slogan in Afganistan should be, "United States, we'll treat you better than Ghengis Khan."? There is a basic moral problem with using bombing as an assasination tool, as we have done in both Afganistan and Iraq, even if your intelligence is correct you are willing to kill 99 innocent people to get at your assasination target. Objectively its very close morally to suicide bombing.
Posted by Guiles at 08/27/2008 @ 3:49pm
"Tragedy of Friendly Fire Air Strike"
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/27/2008 @ 3:31pm
Friendly Fire? And who exactly inducted those Afghan children into the armed forces?
Posted by sincere1906 at 08/27/2008 @ 4:23pm
Just curious as to how LVLIB proposes "putting on ignore" a "Nation" writer?!??!?!
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/27/2008 @ 3:28pm
That's easy. God will take care of it for him.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/27/2008 @ 4:32pm
My vote for Obama in 08 is assured; No Way. No How. No McCain. And I even get the "we should have been in Afghanistan instead of Iraq" tactic being used against McSame/McBush. But the idea of becoming further mired in Afghanistan is a troubling bit of foreign policy whether coming from a Repub. or Dem. What began as a response to 9/11 (that receieved little debate on its strategic soundness), has turned into an attempt at colonial style pacification, as the US and NATO allies attempt to bomb the restless natives into submission. Training the Afghan army so they can stand up so we'll stand down... bringing democracy to the Afghan people... calls for a surge of troops. We spell it Afghanistan, but the problems/remedies here sound alot like that other place we're stuck in.
Posted by sincere1906 at 08/27/2008 @ 4:36pm
oohh, can you feel the love for those kids oozing from the neo-cons? The concern for their well being is so great that a minister is willing to kill them to free...someone. I bet you guys consider the pilot and intel officer "heroes".
I guess those kids should have chosen their parents better.
Yep, this is the way to spread democracy in the ME. Hearts and Minds and all that rot, what, what!
Posted by crabwalk at 08/27/2008 @ 5:21pm
Using air power to wage war, which is a main U.S. tactic, results in horrors like this all the time. No U.S. press coverage, Neo-cons claim it didn't happen, Army/AF always denies everything, Dems/Repubs love 'that' war.
Nothing changes, just another day in imperial America.
Posted by ElyDog at 08/27/2008 @ 5:59pm
The babe in arms could grow up to be a terrorist or at best, a nationalist demanding shrewder deals with the foreigners descending on his land. So in the final analysis, why should we care? To busy pumping ethyl to care, I guess.
Posted by Sorelish at 08/27/2008 @ 6:21pm
Dreyfuss we should probably wait until an investigation is done before we start pointing fingers. It would make sense that the Taliban WOULD feed our military false intelligence. Why not? This war is about hearts and minds and just look how this accident is causing whip lash effects from the Afghani people. You don't know what intelligence that the air force commander had so to say that he based his attack on NOTHING is just bad journalism.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/27/2008 @ 6:47pm
Seems a perfectly fitting tactic by the enemies of modern weaponry who care not a whiff about civilian deaths......par for the course for Islamic nutcases!
Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/27/2008 @ 11:10am
as opposed to other countries that politely invade.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 10:10pm
if not for ideologues driven to throw Afghanistan to the side to get to their "real goal"!
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/27/2008 @ 11:24am
afghanistan,
that's just a measely pipeline.
mmmmmm,
iraq.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 10:11pm
TO THE NATION: This is the type of Garbage you allow on your blogs?
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/27/2008
you're right.
ITSY BITSY BOMBY RUINS PARTY.
how's that?
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 10:12pm
Dreyfuss shows his anti-American hatred more and more with each posted article.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/27/2008 @ 12:14pm
actually,
it seems he's distressed to see little kiddies turned into hamburger.
aren't you?
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 10:15pm
The despicable thing about Dreyfuss is, so does he.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/27/2008
so,
if your kids were blown up by say a iranian bomb,
even if they were trying to "help" you,
you wouldn't call it a massacre?
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 10:21pm
Posted by crabwalk at 08/27/2008 @ 5:21pm
hearts and minds on the ground, that is.
and livers and stomachs and eyes and dreams and love.........
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 10:22pm
"The leaders of China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan were due to discuss regional economic and security ties along with Afghan President Hamid Karzai and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad."
sniff, sniff.
hmmmmm,
i smell gas.......
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 11:06pm
The arguments are very tired from the left. The fact is, war has always been with us and always will be. Throughout history, "war is the intercourse of the human race" -Clausewitz-. What is really ironic is the people who mindlessly chant "No More War" are the very ones who guarantee that war will continue because they tend to support every crazy dictator that pops up, and these dictators are the ones that declare war on weaker neighbors. You do not find democracies going to war with each other (shooting wars), so the best bet for temporary world peace is for every country to be free, under a democratically elected government. So until then, "praise the lord and pass the ammunition". That is as good as you are going to get.
Posted by pyeatte at 08/27/2008 @ 11:09pm
you know, Chip, perhaps the saddest thing about your post, aside from your attempt to suggest that nobody is actually RESPONSIBLE for dropping munitions from the sky on people they didn't know, and that it would be best for all concerned to wrap this episode in Vietnam-era euphemisms and doublespeak, is that you think that one appropriate response from those who did so, for whatever noble reasons they thought they were doing it, would be to BEAT UP THE WRITER of this article in an alleyway, for having the temerity to point out that, in fact, they did, what they did. That is a curiously self-defeating thing to suggest, given that one of the reasons that those bombs were dropped in the first place was allegedly to defend democracy here at home.
Posted by maddox at 08/27/2008 @ 11:18pm
Posted by pyeatte at 08/27/2008 @ 11:09pm
not worthy of more response than saying not worthy of response.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 11:38pm
happy,
lest you forget:
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
that includes credit.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
$
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
karma never rests.
6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
uh oh
7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
but don't they get god to bless the bombs.
8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
"a US bomb flattened a flimsy mud-brick home in Kabul on Sunday blowing apart seven children as they ate breakfast with their father. The blast shattered a neighbour's house killing another two children
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/28/2008 @ 12:20am
9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
According to the meticulous records kept by CBS Radio White House correspondent Mark Knoller, Bush on Monday lodged his 879th day spent in whole or in part at Camp David or his sprawling estate in Crawford, Tex. [from march!]
10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work--you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
slave?
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.
wow. that's faster than they put up a home depot.
12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
that explains iraq.
13 YOU SHALL NOT MURDER.
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 YOU SHALL NOT STEAL.
16 YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST YOUR NEIGHBOUR.
17 YOU SHALL NOT COVET YOUR NEIGHBOUR'S HOUSE; YOU SHALL NOT COVET YOUR NEIGHBOUR'S WIFE, OR MALE OR FEMALE SLAVE, OR OX, OR DONKEY, OR ANYTHING THAT BELONGS TO YOUR NEIGHBOUR.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/28/2008 @ 12:25am
Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/27/2008 @ 11:50pm
Some people don't think that these guys are smart enough for that. Forgetting that a good size group of them managed to sneak into the US. Live undetected for a long period while coordinating a massive attack and then carry out that attack hitting 3 of their 4 targets.
They aren't going to infiltrate as far as the Russians did. But it is entirely believable that they got false intelligence. Even if it wasn't a dupe. It is still possible that the intelligence looked good enough to justify an attack or had a time constraint on it so they weren't able to get the time to fully verify.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/28/2008 @ 02:16am
So until then, "praise the lord and pass the ammunition". That is as good as you are going to get.
Posted by pyeatte at 08/27/2008 @ 11:09pm
Since that is the way it is to be, get your ass on down to the nearest recruiter and join the friggin army.
War does not have to be with us for eternity and as soon as people realize that the people making the weapons make a shitload of money off the wars and promote them, the sooner people will quit killing themselves to line the pockets of the wealthy who could give a rats ass about any nation or the people doing the fighting. All they care about is making money and gaining more and more and more power.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/28/2008 @ 07:22am
Posted by pyeatte at 08/27/2008 @ 11:09pm
which dictators are the left supporting these days? Can you name a single one that I, a "leftist", supports?
Would you like me to list the ones supported by "the right", including todays president?
Short list:
Pinochet
Saddam
The Shah
Mubarek
Hu Jintao
The leaders of Tajikistan, uzbekistan
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 07:27am
Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/27/2008 @ 11:50pm |
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/28/2008 @ 02:16am
Let us assume for a minute that the the military (the same folk that told us about Tillman being killed by Afghans and that Jessica Lynch went down in a hail of bullets) story is true, they were fed "false intelligence".
1: does that make the kids any less dead?
2: does that make the parents anger at the US any less real
3: shouldn't professional intel people do due diligence and CHECK the intel before bombing a village?
4: after Chalibi, curveball and Niger forgeries and the 500 people released from Gitmo, does the military intelligence program not have enough evidence to support the conclusion that... people lie all the time?
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 07:32am
[ POSTED: 10:39 a.m. EDT, April 25, 2007
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The last soldier to see Army Ranger Pat Tillman alive, Spc. Bryan O'Neal, told lawmakers that he was warned by superiors not to divulge -- especially to the Tillman family -- that a fellow soldier killed Tillman.
O'Neal particularly wanted to tell fellow soldier Kevin Tillman, who was in the convoy traveling behind his brother at the time of the 2004 incident in Afghanistan.
"I wanted right off the bat to let the family know what had happened, especially Kevin, because I worked with him in a platoon and I knew that he and the family all needed to know what had happened," O'Neal testified. "I was quite appalled that when I was actually able to speak with Kevin, I was ordered not to tell him."
Asked who gave him the order, O'Neal replied that it came from his battalion commander, then-Lt. Col. Jeff Bailey.
"He basically just said ... 'Do not let Kevin know, that he's probably in a bad place knowing his brother's dead,' " O'Neal told House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Henry Waxman. "And he made it known I would get in trouble, sir, if I spoke with Kevin on it being fratricide."
The military instead released a "manufactured narrative" detailing how Pat Tillman died leading a courageous counterattack in an Afghan mountain pass, Kevin Tillman told the committee.]
A "manufactured narrative".
sounds like the whole war scene since march 2003.
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 07:40am
CNN article continued..
[Also Tuesday, former Pfc. Jessica Lynch told the House panel that the military lied about her capture.
Lynch testified that after her vehicle was attacked in Iraq in March 2003, she suffered a mangled spinal column, broken arm, crushed foot, shattered femur and even a sexual assault.
But it only added insult to injury, literally, when she returned to her parents' home in West Virginia, which "was under siege by media all repeating the story of the little girl 'Rambo' from the hills of West Virginia who went down fighting," Lynch said.
"It was not true," she said before gently chiding the military. "The truth is always more heroic than the hype."]
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 07:43am
Look, we all know that this incident COULD well be due to planted intelligence....though it is crystal clear you Libs, other than CCC, choose to not take that into account at all.
Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/27/2008 @ 11:50pm
Wrong you are happy. I agreed that the evidence or intelligence they used may have been planted by the enemy.
That is why we have to verify the intelligence before dropping bombs. How many enemies do you suppose we have created from killing innocent civilians? Just what the enemy wants.
Not a very smart approach if you ask me. Just like our little march into war with Iraq on lame intelligence. When will you rethug war loving folks realize this.
How many more wars and civilians along with our soldiers need to die before the neocon war hawks learn to verify intelligence to a high level of certainty before proceeding into death marches? Wars are easy to start, stopping them, as we have seen, ain't so easy. Maybe next time around, we'll know better, but I doubt it.
You rethug types remind me of Charlie Brown with Lucie. She keeps telling him she'll hold the football for him, and he keeps buying into it and falling on his ass....same as you guys, but you keep dragging the rest of us in with your stupidity.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/28/2008 @ 07:46am
MSNBC.com
[ pdated 9:33 p.m. AKT, Fri., Dec. 15, 2006
The Pentagon called them "among the most dangerous, best-trained, vicious killers on the face of the Earth," sweeping them up after Sept. 11 and hauling them in chains to a U.S. military prison in southeastern Cuba.
Since then, hundreds of the men have been transferred from Guantanamo Bay to other countries, many of them for "continued detention."
And then set free.
The Associated Press was able to track 245 of those formerly held at Guantanamo. The investigation, which spanned 17 countries, found:
Once the detainees arrived in other countries, 205 of the 245 were either freed without being charged or were cleared of charges related to their detention at Guantanamo. Forty either stand charged with crimes or continue to be detained. Only a tiny fraction of transferred detainees have been put on trial. The AP identified 14 trials, in which eight men were acquitted and six are awaiting verdicts. Two of the cases involving acquittals -- one in Kuwait, one in Spain -- initially resulted in convictions that were overturned on appeal.
*****The Afghan government has freed every one of the more than 83 Afghans sent home. Lawmaker Sibghatullah Mujaddedi, the head of Afghanistan's reconciliation commission, said many were innocent and wound up at Guantanamo because of tribal or personal rivalries.******
At least 67 of 70 repatriated Pakistanis are free after spending a year in Adiala Jail. A senior Pakistani Interior Ministry official said investigators determined that most had been "sold" for bounties to U.S. forces by Afghan warlords who invented links between the men and al-Qaida. "We consider them innocent," said the official, who declined to be named because of the sensitivity of the issue.
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 07:48am
Maybe it is time that Basil Fawlty retired from the intel service!
HAPPY or MAASCH would you hire him? He could read the ENRON auditing reports from the early 90's to you in a sing song voice...all is well...all is well...
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 07:52am
A "manufactured narrative".
Kool-Aid for the neo-cons.
Government propaganda
And you "free thinkers" eat it right up.
If it has a uniform, and speaks, we know where the noses of the cons will be found.
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 07:56am
Frankly FROSTY, your post is the only one that merits a response.
No, under the circumstances I would not call it a massacre. I'd call it an accident.
And to the Others, I stand by my comments. Dreyfuss is a dirtbag for the purpose behind his article and the reason he wrote it
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/28/2008 @ 08:28am
No, under the circumstances I would not call it a massacre. I'd call it an accident.
And to the Others, I stand by my comments. Dreyfuss is a dirtbag for the purpose behind his article and the reason he wrote it
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/28/2008 @ 08:28am
Chip, How would you like it if, say the Air Force for some reason was given false information that you were harboring terrorists in your house and that you and they had weapons of mass destruction and were in the final of steps of carrying out those plans. And, the Air Force just accidentally bombed your home and killed everyone in your family but missed you somehow.
Do you think an accident like that would be acceptable?
The purpose and reason behind this article are dead on. The military intelligence better damn well verify their targets before dropping the pay load.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/28/2008 @ 09:08am
the entire rest of the world is aware that the US are bigots, bullies, and hypocrites, if you love your country, you will speak up and not let these atrocities get swept under the rug of partisanship, and false promises of yet another neocon govt. with "trickle down" promises, which amounts to pissing on us....
All states should be more progressive, charge larger cars more at registration, institue congestion pricing, etc...based on the fact that as soon as gas prices drop a nickel, everybody goes back to old habits, americans are not intelligent and are creatures of habit; if only americans were smarter, but that is wishful thinking.....every day almost getting run over by an SUV driver in a hurry to get to walmart is not fun, and makes one realize we are all idiots.....
so the results of this upcoming election and people pooh-poohing hope and change, should not surprise anyone....Canada will be building a fence next to keep out draft-dodgers, and have just started sending americans back here....like bill maher said, americans are cowards, dropping bombs on innocent civilians, instead of fighting like real men (and women).....religion is a crutch of weak-minded people, another true aphorism of former mn. gov. jesse "the body" ventura...bush/mcbush preying on gullible, works every time....
Posted by jrs112 at 08/28/2008 @ 10:20am
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 07:32am
In an ideal world yes. Every piece of intelligence would be completely checked and verified. War is far far far from ideal. Our intelligence is what led to Somalia and the Black Hawk situation. War intelligence isn't always accurate and you can't always verify it and therefore ACCIDENTS will happen. Does that make the Afghanis anger any less warranted? Hell no. I would be just as pissed off. BUT for you to criticize them with no knowledge of what actually happened is irresponsible at best.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/28/2008 @ 11:06am
War intelligence isn't always accurate and you can't always verify it and therefore ACCIDENTS will happen.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/28/2008 @ 11:06am
Have you read anything about the Nagasaki atomic bombing? They were only authorized to drop the bomb on the given target with only a positive visual ID. They wanted to make sure they hit the target. The crew circled and circled with a live bomb on their plane. They were worried that they would run out of gas and have to try to land with an armed atomic bomb as the pay load.
If they were careful enough to make sure of the target with something as deadly with this, surely they could have had some special forces on the ground to make a positive I.D. of the target in Afghanistan before killing a bunch of innocent civilians including children.
It doesn't matter what you or I think about if it's a consequence of war or not, but it sure as hell does matter what the people of Afghanistan think about it. We create more enemies from allies doing things like this.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/28/2008 @ 11:47am
pipeline.........
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/28/2008 @ 1:07pm
Chippy, Accidents happen, 'shit' happens, but air war makes accidents 'happen' ... all the time.
It is no longer an accident once you understand that. It's just the 'cost of doing business","collateral damage","acceptable consequences", or as Madeline "Clinton" Not So Bright said about the many deaths of Iraqi children due to the endless pre-war blockade - "Tough" or actually "We think the price is worth it."
Posted by ElyDog at 08/28/2008 @ 1:23pm
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/28/2008 @ 11:47am
I am not arguing with you. I am saying that we don't know the situation a time limit is a time limit. With Nagasaki they had the time for the plane to run out of fuel. This might have been time sensitive. Which means maybe they didn't have the time to deploy special forces to ID the target. All I am saying is that without knowledge of the situation us criticizing is worthless.
Like I said if I was the Afghanis I wouldn't give a damn about the excuse. I'm speaking from our POV as Americans.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/28/2008 @ 2:06pm
Wolfgang1: I already served from 66-70 thank you. People are going to fight if they only have knives and sticks - it doesn't require "rich" nations supplying arms. Human nature never changes, and you cannot get around this little fact. Go back 5000 years if you like.
crabwalk: To keep it simple and close for you, start with Castro and Chavez. Throw in Nicaragra in the 80s. Of course we have had dictators we supported but this was against the backdrop of the cold war with the eastern block. When the cold war ended in the late 80s, support ended for several of them (Panama?).
Posted by pyeatte at 08/28/2008 @ 2:40pm
Like I said if I was the Afghanis I wouldn't give a damn about the excuse. I'm speaking from our POV as Americans.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/28/2008 @ 2:06pm
how about as humans?
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/28/2008 @ 2:42pm
how about as humans? Posted by frosty zoom at 08/28/2008 @ 2:42pm |
When have humans ever treated each other humanely?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/28/2008 @ 2:50pm
CCC-
We cannot win this "war" with bombs.
If we win, it will be because we have shown our way is better than the Taliban way. Killing kids is the Taliban way.
Negligence is negligence. If I killed your kid due to negligence, would you forgive me? If I said I was in ahurry to get to work, would you forgive me?
----
Posted by pyeatte at 08/28/2008 @ 2:40pm
1: Chavez is not a dictator.
2: I have never supported Castro, nor do I understand those that do. Yes, some "lefties do coddle up to him, but most true lib-rools that I know despise the way he treats "his" people.
3: I think the history of dictators supported by american leaders is way into the right-wing column, both the dictators and the American presidents.
Nicaruaga is a bad example for both of us, neither "side" of that conflict were good. The communist backed did bad stuff, the anti-commies did as bad, if not worse.
Let us look at the largest communist nation on Earth, China, one of my favorite punching bags. they are about as bad as Saddam Hussein, but you will hear almost zero complaints from the right. They are a cheap source of labor and cheap crap. If you were serious about stopping communism, you would be against MFN status for China. Are you?
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 3:46pm
When have humans ever treated each other humanely?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/28/2008 @ 2:50pm
well,
we do a good job in my house.
how about yours?
thought so.
see, it shouldn't be so hard.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/28/2008 @ 3:50pm
When have humans ever treated each other humanely?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/28/2008 @ 2:50pm |
Let it start with me and you.
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 3:50pm
Wolfgang1: I already served from 66-70 thank you. People are going to fight if they only have knives and sticks - it doesn't require "rich" nations supplying arms. Human nature never changes, and you cannot get around this little fact. Go back 5000 years if you like. Posted by pyeatte at 08/28/2008 @ 2:40pm
I can't argue with you the fact that people always have found reasons to kill each other. Humans are great at coming up with lame ass excuses to kill each other.
Most wars have been fought over resources, land acquistion in the form of pretended religious purposes, and for profit. The latter term has been common in almost every war. When the wars were over, did the citizens or soldiers for that matter of the countries that won the wars get the wealth of their victory, or does that wealth just land into the laps of those who started the wars in the first place? Once again, the latter is the case 99.9% of the time.
The people who push the wars profit heavily from them by selling arms, in some cases to both sides...talk about a no loss scenario for the weapons manufacturers. Not quite the same case for the poor bastards killing each other with the weapons in the trenches.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/28/2008 @ 3:56pm
"Death Defying Mutilated Armies Scatter The Earth
Crawling Out Of Dirty Holes Their Morals, Their Morals Disappear
Yesterday A Morning Came A Smile Upon Your Face
Caesar's Palace Morning Glory Silly Human, Silly Human, Silly Human Race"
YES
Silly human race. Silly, stupid humans.
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 3:58pm
I can kill maybe one with my hands
two with a stick
3-4 with a knife
six with a revolver
15 with a Glock
two dozen with a mortar
a village with a howitzer
a town with a 1,000 lb bomb
a city with a nuke
should we make more nukes, because I can kill one with my hands?
Posted by crabwalk at 08/28/2008 @ 4:02pm
Negligence is negligence. If I killed your kid due to negligence, would you forgive me? If I said I was in ahurry to get to work, would you forgive me? ---- Posted by pyeatte at 08/28/2008 @ 2:40pm
Did I ever say what they did was right? Did I say the Afghani's anger was unwarranted?
So what's your point?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/28/2008 @ 4:05pm