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RedditThree-fourths of voters believe the economy is in a recession. High gas prices, rising healthcare costs, the collapse of the housing industry, a tumbling stock market and the price of food at the supermarket now dominates the news.
Today the Campaign for America's Future announced a new economic war room, to document how conservatism ran our economy into the gutter and detail how smart progressivism can turn things around.
The economy is the top concern for voters in the presidential election, especially among key swing groups like independent, blue-collar and women voters. Yet according to Democratic pollster Celinda Lake, 47 percent of voters believe the economy is not being talked about enough on the campaign trail.
Those who cite the economy as their top concern favor Barack Obama over McCain by sixteen points, says Lake. Overall, Obama has a nineteen point advantage over McCain on the question of who would best handle the economy.
But Obama still has room for improvement. The Democratic nominee is at times reminiscent of John Kerry in '04, who was too high-minded to get his hands dirty in the nuts-and-bolts of the economy, and refrained from hammering Bush on outsourcing and trade in key swing states like Ohio. Obama is a far more compelling politician than Kerry, but he lacks the populist edge of Bill Clinton in '92 or even Hillary Clinton in '08.
In an excellent Washington Post column today, Harold Meyerson urges Obama to be bigger and bolder when it comes to issues like globalization and investment. Writes Meyerson:
On these issues (and most others), McCain is a standard-issue Republican. He's never met a trade deal he didn't like, and his formula for boosting the American economy is to preserve tax cuts for the very rich and slash taxes on corporations. Obama, by contrast, acknowledges the costs as well as the benefits of trade and argues that globalization requires strengthening the safety net for American workers at home and putting enforceable labor standards into any future trade deals. Unlike McCain, he favors a domestic investment policy that designates tax dollars and tax credits for building a greener economy.
But these are contrasts that Obama has yet to draw in a compelling way. In a speech on the economy Friday in St. Petersburg, Fla., he talked about investing in infrastructure projects and green jobs without contrasting his stances with those of McCain, or of George W. Bush, whose economic policies are essentially indistinguishable from McCain's.
Essentially, Obama is declining to swing at hanging curve balls. That's not a strategy for victory.
In new tv ads, Obama has begun to draw sharp contrasts with McCain on issues like energy and link the Arizona Republican to President Bush. Yet he still hasn't articulated a grand plan--if there is one--to ease people's pain and get the economy back on track. Says Meyerson:
McCain rewards investment abroad; Obama rewards investment at home. McCain offshores; Obama onshores. Some of Obama's more Wall Street-oriented advisers may be uncomfortable with these themes and policies, but Obama isn't running for president of Wall Street. If he can remember that, the election is still his to lose.
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McCain CAN NOT win on the economy. Not just because he's essentially calling for an extension of Bush's economic policies...but his own ADMITTED lack of knowledge about economic issues (Still a blunder waiting to be fully exploited by Obama).
And history is not on his side either. Economic downturns ALWAYS hurt the incumbent or incumbent party in the White House (just as upturns ALWAYS help).
The spin from the Right that "this is not a REAL recession, it's still 1.5% growth" is just a watered down version of Phil Gramm's "mental recession" and "whiners" comment...it's a loser.
McCain will avoid economics as best he can.
And here's a thought, if oil drops over the Fall....he loses the ONE tangential tactic he takes on it, that of "things would be great, if we just start drilling".
It would take some time for the economy to gin up again after the gas prices drop...but too late for McCain (or Bush) to claim economic recovery and push for "four more years".
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/06/2008 @ 3:29pm
>>>Obama is a far more compelling politician than Kerry, but he lacks the populist edge of Bill Clinton in '92 or even Hillary Clinton in '08.<<<
If you just look at his background, Obama has a MUCH more compelling populist image than Hillary RODAM.
He is closer to Bill in this regard, but unlike Bill, he actually worked with the poor after receiving his first class education.
This "Obama elitist" BS is more about perception than reality, in that he doesn't have a Southern drawl like Bill Clinton or a scrappy look like McCain. He has a more elegant appearance and speaking style, and this is somehow being misconstrued as "elitist".
Come on...the guy was raised by a single mother on food stamps! How elitist is that?
Posted by Metteyya at 08/06/2008 @ 3:48pm
It is the economy, but I predicted gas prices would drop for the election, and they are definitely heading down. Also, you'll note that amazing enough, things are going well with Iraqs oil production of all of a sudden. What do you want to bet that once Iraq starts releasing crude onto the market, gas prices drop even further.
Anyone who doesn't think this was all by design needs to have their heads examined.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2008 @ 3:51pm
Obama has a strong economic plan and vision. It is difficult to articulate the fine details on a stump speech, and the average voter is not motivated enough to visit websites or read books. That is Obama's dilemma. How do you educate an electorate, articulate fine details and appeal to average voters who are accustomed to sound bytes, constant entertainment and everything being available to them instantly--fast food, 30 minute "news" programs, microwave meals, etc.? That is where the ground game comes into play. As Donna Brazille said last Sunday, in her battleground State, it is difficult to go to a grocery store, Wal-Mart or community event without running into an Obama button clad person clasping a voter registration clipboard. That is how Obama is going to disseminate the details of his plans--the overwhelming groundswell of supporters going door-to-door, event-to-event, call-to-call and bringing home the vote! I do agree with most posters that the Obama message needs to get out better, but I fault the lack of and performance of surrogates on the trail for that. Democrats also have the nasty habit of dissing their own candidate in public. Republicans understand this and have won by simply standing behind their guy 1000% on the trail. We would be hard-pressed to find insider Republican surrogates willing to malign their candidate. McCain could literally rob a bank on primetime TV, and his surrogates would still smile into the camera, recite the talking points, bash Obama, and completely avoid the question from the media person. THAT is how you win an election. If Democrats were to smarten up and take their advice and criticism to HQ instead of the public arena, then perhaps we'd win a few elections. Maybe this time. Maybe this election. Yes WE Can!!!
Posted by MaryanneAZ at 08/06/2008 @ 4:09pm
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2008 @ 3:51pm
As noted above, WOLF...that would be BAD for McCain...not good.
He's put his entire bankroll on Number "Drill". Oil prices drop, public approval for drilling drops, and he's left trying to explain why HE thought it was a "supply deficiency"...
when it was merely speculation? After all, if it was "supply"...then there should be no "quick" (less than a year) price drop.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/06/2008 @ 4:09pm
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/06/2008 @ 4:09pm
True enough MASK. But, McIdiot will use the Iraq oil and dropping gas prices as his main talking points come Sept and Oct for his pushing to stay the course in Iraq and all that.
Also, the American people have shown that greed and short memories dictate how they vote. If gas prices drop enough, they'll even forgive W for all the crap he's pulled.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2008 @ 4:29pm
True enough MASK. But, McIdiot will use the Iraq oil and dropping gas prices as his main talking points come Sept and Oct for his pushing to stay the course in Iraq and all that.----Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2008 @ 4:29pm
Don't know if I see that.
Maverick John already "hinting" that he'd go along with the Obama/al-Maliki timetable (quickly walked it back, but keeps talking about "conditions on the ground"...code for "If I think a 16 month withdrawal will help me, I'll SAY 'conditions on the ground' have improved".)
But his WHOLE "economic message" is oil prices and "drill, drill, drill, more nukes...and maybe some conservation"
Oil drops? Impetus, even approval for more drilling drops with it and he's left with everything he's said in June, July, August...gone as far as relevance.
But it won't help boost the economy until into NEXT year...too late for him and Bush to make hay of.
So what does McCain have left? He's the lone hold-out (even over the Iraqis) for "staying until 'victory'"....his "economic plan" is "more Bush"....and if he picks some YOUNG Veep, he's just taken "Obama is too young and inexperienced" off the table by putting a similar person a "heartbeat away from the Presidency".
At this point, high oil prices are a winner for McCain and the Repubs...get to blame Obama and the Dems for "not letting us drill to fix it" (thought that's a lie short-term of course).
Prices go down too much...Maverick is screwed.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/06/2008 @ 4:39pm
>>> If gas prices drop enough, they'll even forgive W for all the crap he's pulled.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2008 @ 4:29pm<<<
The price drop is a gimmick, just like the price increase. These fluctuations are NOT based on supply and demand dynamics, and are based almost entirely on speculative plays in the oil futures market.
The public is not sophisticated enough to understand how oil futures speculation affects the price of oil, so they are easily fooled by Republican talking points concerning offshore drilling.
Brazil had one of the biggest offshore oil discoveries in history in their Tupi field in November of 2007 - some 8 billion barrels - yet oil prices went UP!!!
Approving more offshore oil drilling will NOT materially affect the price of oil, reigning in oil futures speculation will.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/06/2008 @ 4:39pm
Eh. Let them do what they want. I am convinced no one knows what makes the economy tick. Republicans like to think that tax cuts to corporations and the upper 20% will do it. But we have seen that with Bush and it hasn't helped. Demo's think raising taxes on the upper 2% to pay for certain programs that will end up stimulating the economy will do it. Neither has worked. The Demo's haven't ben proven right because of a lack of evidence. The Repub's haven't been proven right by an over abundance of evidence. Lowering taxes has yet to "stimulate" the economy. Raising them has yet to "stimulate" the economy. The economy just moves. It fluctuates like anything else. It is kind of like the rights argument about global warming. The economy isn't affected by one mans plan to change it. Peaks and valleys just happen. It's natural. The day I see an economic plan that actually works. Is the day I will see someone who knows what the hell they are talking about.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 4:51pm
Approving more offshore oil drilling will NOT materially affect the price of oil, reigning in oil futures speculation will.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/06/2008 @ 4:39pm
Metteyya and Mask both said the same thing. But here's the catch. Evidently, the American public will buy into all kinds of crap. How do you think W got run number 2 at the White House. The elections never should have been close enough for him to win in either case, but we evidently have a nation of people who can't grasp the fact that someone is screwing them to the nth degree.
McCain is an idiot and has proven it time and time again. There was a time i actually had a little respect for the guy. But, he is completely clueless and has proven it in his sound bites, political speeches and will continue to do so.
But, if by some small miracle, Iraq produces more oil, McCain will say that he was all for the war originally and Obama wasn't, and he knew that gas prices would go high and that only having Iraq as a "friend" would help with the "energy crisis" at hand. He has nothing else to run on. Of course he's going to push drilling offshore in the U.S. to line the pockets of those who back him, but that's not the point. If gas prices drop, and they can even hint that Iraq is part of the reason for the price drop, McIdiot will quickly become W's best buddy.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2008 @ 4:56pm
The people in Arizona know John McCaim quite well. How many times has he been re-elected?
Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 4:52pm
Can you say defense contracts Franky? Half the damn defense contractors in the country do testing in Arizona. McIdiot doesn't have to rely on pork for his state, it's built into the system for him.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2008 @ 4:59pm
MaryanneAz-You'll have to excuse FrankGrits and his hypocrisy.In the past he has said nasty things about McCain,but since his cult leader,Hillary,lost Frank is, now,pouting and wants McCain to win so Hillary can run again in four years.He likes to put down Obama for not being in the military,but excuses Hillary.Ignore him.
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/06/2008 @ 5:03pm
"Also, I read your tirade on another thread about John McCain not being a hero because he didn't escape from the Hanoi Hilton and take all of his guys with him. Methinks you are watching too much Rambo. It's hard to escape when your hands are bound behind your back and you are hung by your hands. To this day, Mccain cannot lift his hands above his head and needs help dressing and undressing."
He could have made his escape when they took him down and from being tortured after they found out who is father was. Or he could have done what the guy that Rescue Dawn is based on did.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:04pm
Or he could have done what the guy that Rescue Dawn is based on did.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:04pm
...or he could have been a better pilot and avoided being shot down in the first place. So much for the great warrior. The guys on the ground do the real fighting, the rich boys in the planes take little risk in comparison.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:08pm
"I don't have an inferiority complex like you do or suffer from a lack of self confidence like you do. You have to keep trying to put others down to build yourself up but you are so wrong about so much."
It's called freedom asshole. Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 5:01pm
Kind of funny. You can't put him down for putting others down then put him down again. As many times as you have blatantly insulted people here Frank because they don't agree with you, I would be a little careful about being so brazen an example of someone who is so hypocritical in his analysis of others. Lest I Google some of your many many unprovoked insults of people.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:09pm
As for the debates, I really don't place much stock in them after what I saw in the democratic primary. Hillary wiped the floor with Obama on every issue including the economy. The pundits said she won them all. Yet people still voted for Obama. So debates are nice but people don't really listen all that much, especially if American Idol is on. Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 5:08pm
Uhh. I don't know which Pundits you were listening too. Most of the ones I heard said they were a tie most of the time. Except that one they said John Edwards won. She wiped the floor with him in YOUR opinion frank. You need to differentiate between what is opinion and what is fact. Whether she won a debate is opinion. Which means my opinion can be different from yours or the pundits. You think she won. Many many many many people disagree with you.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:11pm
"Hillary did not lose the debate, but she also did not win it." - Washington Post on final debate
"CNN-YouTube Debate: Obama Won, Hillary Lost, Edwards Rising"
"Both Clinton and Obama Win LA Debate | Newsweek Voices - Eleanor ..." Newsweek Headline
Just a few examples to deflate the "she destroyed him in every debate" argument.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:19pm
Obama did not. Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 5:12pm
I thought this was about Wolfgang?
God what a joke of a being.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:20pm
Please refrain from slandering our heroes unless you've done something by comparison. Obama did not. Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 5:12pm
Oh by the way. Obama has never tried to "besmirch" McCain or anyone else's war record. He has actually gone out of his way to avoid commenting on McCain's war record. So what is your point here?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:21pm
FrankGrits put down our war heroes,like MCain,when he thought it would be Hillary as the nominee,but is,now,Mr. Hypocrisy since she lost.Hillary,of course,did not serve,but did stay in a Holiday Inn express where she almost became a POW when she was almost under sniper fire when she was with her daughter.
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/06/2008 @ 5:25pm
Besides Frank you can repeat that tired old argument as much as you want Frank. To the rest of the US serving in the military does not immediately qualify you to be the President. Kerry v. Bush II, Gore V. Bush II, Clinton V. Bush I. No body cares about military career unless you were some amazing general who has some amazing accomplishments under your belt. Most people acknowledge someone's military service record and then look at what else they have done. You are one of very few people who believes that anyone who served in the military needs to be unanimously voted into Presidency. Most people look at a person policies and platforms to see what a person wants to do for the country not what a person has done in the past.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:28pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/06/2008 @ 5:25pm
Frank has a way of explaining every disparaging comment he made though. None of them were meant so he can explain them all apparently.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:29pm
Ccc-Of course,Frank would be saying the same things he used to say about McCain had Hillary won.His tantrum and hypocrisy are interesting,however.I'm older and have been around,but I've never even heard of someone who would vote for someone they don't want in the hopes that that POTUS will screw up and make way for their candidate to run,again in four years.
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/06/2008 @ 5:44pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/06/2008 @ 5:44pm
I mean Frank is voting for policies that according to his old posts he blasted less than a year go. Now he is attempting to defend them from scrutiny. While voting against policies he would have agreed with. It's funny to me.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 5:53pm
Ccc-Doing what Frank is doing is bizarre.I can't figure out how anyone could become a politicians cult follower to the degree that Frank is.I would be too embarrassed to come on here to do that type of tantrum even though it's anonymous.It is amusing,however,to watch him jump through hoops in order to explain his new views since we all know that he is making it up as he goes along.
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/06/2008 @ 6:16pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/06/2008 @ 6:16pm
Happy who was willing to bet me that McCain is going to win is more critical of McCain than Frank even though Happy shares more in common with McCain's views than Frank does.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 6:40pm
Frank..... keep it coming man, I'm catching a buzz off the fumes!
Posted by ADHD at 08/06/2008 @ 6:44pm
Ccc-Frank's support for McCain is phony so he's compensating by over doing it whereas Happy is a real supporter and feels no need to over play it.Of course,the fact that Frank is having a tantrum makes him more emotional and irrational.
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/06/2008 @ 7:06pm
You don't have the right to tell anyone here how to think or to try and repost old posts to show that someone may have actually had a change of heart or mind. It's called freedom asshole.----Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 5:01pm
I'm not TELLING you how to think, FRANK...I'm SHOWING how you think.
And you've had no "change of heart or mind"...McCain is your "vessel" to get 2012 for the ONE candidate you always supported...and still do. Hillary.
As for your past posts...it's called HYPOCRISY asshole.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/06/2008 @ 7:10pm
You don't have the right to tell anyone here how to think or to try and repost old posts to show that someone may have actually had a change of heart or mind. It's called freedom asshole.----Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 5:01pm
What's funny about this is this part.
"It's called freedom asshole"
He is essentially tell you that you do no have the right to freedom of speech in posting what you want then saying that it is freedom. Frank is hilarious. Always time for a good laugh with him, at him, around him.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/06/2008 @ 7:17pm
Obama's real problem is convincing middle class Republicans that, for example, it doesn't matter if you call it the "Estate Tax" of the "Death Tax" they will never have a large enough estate to pay it. My neighbors have been middle-middle class Republicans for generations because they believe that someday when they are rich it will all pay off. It drives me nuts. For people who pride themselves on pragmatism and accuse me of having that "hippie dippie mentality" (I swear) they dream of a future full of cotton candy clouds and unicorns when it comes to economics.
Posted by Pogge at 08/06/2008 @ 8:35pm
>>> If gas prices drop enough, they'll even forgive W for all the crap he's pulled.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2008 @ 4:29pm<<<
The price drop is a gimmick, just like the price increase. These fluctuations are NOT based on supply and demand dynamics, and are based almost entirely on speculative plays in the oil futures market.
The public is not sophisticated enough to understand how oil futures speculation affects the price of oil, so they are easily fooled by Republican talking points concerning offshore drilling.
Brazil had one of the biggest offshore oil discoveries in history in their Tupi field in November of 2007 - some 8 billion barrels - yet oil prices went UP six months in a row to record levels!!!
Approving more offshore oil drilling will NOT materially affect the price of oil, reigning in oil futures speculation will.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/06/2008 @ 8:55pm
in pre-election years, the fed rate goes down with a republican incumbent.
they are maintaining the fed rate low to keep the credit flowing so the shit not hitteth the fan until january.
inflation be damned.
this year is no different:
Federal Reserve decides not to raise key interest rate
August 6, 2008
The Federal Reserve decided yesterday not to raise a key interest rate, indicating its deeper concern about a weak economy than rising inflation.
Thus the federal funds rate, which affects the cost of an array of consumer-credit purchases, including mortgages and car loans, will remain at 2 percent.
It was the second consecutive time that the Federal Open Market Committee left the rate unchanged, which it also did in June. Before that, the Fed had cut rates seven times between last September and May of this year, sparking fears of inflation.
<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>
FINANCIAL MARKETS ARE BETTING THAT THE NEXT MOVE WILL BE A RATE INCREASE, PROBABLY BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR BUT AFTER THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION ON NOV. 4. The Fed meetings remaining on the 2008 calendar are slated for Sept. 16, Oct. 28-29 and Dec. 16.
Following aggressive rate cuts, this is the second consecutive meeting at which rates have been held steady. FED RATE CUTS FROM LAST SEPTEMBER THROUGH APRIL BROUGHT THE FEDERAL FUNDS TARGET TO 2% FROM 5.25% -- ONE OF THE SHARPEST RATE-REDUCTION CAMPAIGNS IN HISTORY.
<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>
damn.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 9:27pm
but I predicted gas prices would drop for the election,
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2008 @ 3:51pm
hey, that was me. and maybe you, too.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 9:28pm
when it was merely speculation? After all, if it was "supply"...then there should be no "quick" (less than a year) price drop.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/06/2008 @ 4:09pm
yes, but it was his talk of drill-a-lill-a-lill that sent the speculators scurrying.
or so it will seem.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 9:30pm
hey, that was me.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 9:28pm
Yes it was. Credit to FZ.
Posted by Benchrest at 08/06/2008 @ 9:55pm
there's a llama in troy...
and the economy has been better.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 08/06/2008 @ 9:57pm
hey,
now i know why frankgrits likes mccain so much:
A: Actually, I don't know where you got that quote from. I'm very well versed in economics. I was there at the Reagan Revolution. I was there just after we enacted the first tax cuts and the restraints on spending. I was chairman of the Commerce Committee in the Senate, which addresses virtually every major economic issue that affects the US. I'm very well versed on economics. That's why I have a strong team around me that respect my views and my vision. And that's why The Wall Street Journal, in a survey of economists recently, that the majority of economists thought that I could handle the nation's economy best. And I have been a consistent fighter to restrain spending and to cut taxes. And my credentials & my experience & my knowledge of these economic issues, I think, are extensive. And I would match them against anybody who's running.
Source: 2008 GOP debate in Boca Raton Florida Jan 24, 2008
<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>
McCain responded, "Actually, I don't know where you got that quote from. I'm very well-versed in economics."
Russert's quote comes from a 2005 interview with the Wall Street Journal on Nov. 26, 2005: "I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."
We could not find that McCain has said that quote "repeatedly," but he has made similar comments recently The Chicago Tribune quoted McCain talking to reporters on Dec. 18, 2007: "The issue of economics is something that I've really never understood as well as I should. I understand the basics, the fundamentals, the vision, all that kind of stuff."
<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>
all that kinda stuff!
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 9:57pm
Yes it was. Credit to FZ.
Posted by Benchrest at 08/06/2008 @ 9:55pm
but maybe not. maybe he said it first.
anyhoo, doesn't really matter and now i feel petty.
i probably read it somewhere, probably from the wolfster.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 9:59pm
Please refrain from slandering our heroes unless you've done something by comparison. Obama did not.
Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 5:12pm
"john mccain used to be a hero" -- you
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 10:03pm
"....and now i feel petty."
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 9:59pm
"The laborer is worthy of his wages."
Posted by Benchrest at 08/06/2008 @ 10:03pm
they dream of a future full of cotton candy clouds and unicorns when it comes to economics.
Posted by Pogge at 08/06/2008 @ 8:35pm
and mexican gardners!
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 10:08pm
Until the US is out of Iraq (contractors and all), there is nothing that will improve the economy in this country. Only then can we move forward . Vote Nader.
Posted by manyearss at 08/06/2008 @ 10:10pm
we need a hero in washington!
LASSIE '08
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 10:32pm
woof! woof!
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 10:33pm
all that kinda stuff........
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 10:35pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 10:35pm | ignore this person | warn this person
there's a llama in the movie, "troy"...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 08/06/2008 @ 11:04pm
Obama Economics
1. Raise taxes on Americans to "end global poverty" Obama bill S2433
2. Raise Corporate Taxes. A proven inflationary move that will hurt middle and lower income Americans the most. Consumers pay for corporate tax increases. Even the Europeans have learned that this is bad economics and have lowered corporate tax rates not raised them.
3. Raise Capital Gains Taxes 40-50%. This will again hurt middle class Americans the most because they can least afford this extra tax.
4. He admitted to NPR last week that his proposals will increase the deficit.
"Obama spoke to Norris from St. Petersburg, Fla., where earlier on Friday he unveiled a proposal for a new $50 billion economic stimulus package, which would be funded by deficit spending and through a new tax on oil company profits."
http://tinyurl.com/6rczjk
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/06/2008 @ 11:38pm
"end global poverty" Obama bill
<<<<<>>>>>
"Is not this the last that I have chosen? To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free and that ye break every yoke?
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? When thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward."
Isaiah 58:6-8
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 11:57pm
2. Raise Corporate Taxes. A proven inflationary move that will hurt middle and lower income Americans the most. Consumers pay for corporate tax increases. Even the Europeans have learned that this is bad economics and have lowered corporate tax rates not raised them.
<<<<<>>>>>
inflationary move?????
maybe. aim higher, pastor:
FED RATE CUTS FROM LAST SEPTEMBER THROUGH APRIL BROUGHT THE FEDERAL FUNDS TARGET TO 2% FROM 5.25% -- ONE OF THE SHARPEST RATE-REDUCTION CAMPAIGNS IN HISTORY.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 11:59pm
3. Raise Capital Gains Taxes 40-50%. This will again hurt middle class Americans the most because they can least afford this extra tax.
<<<<<>>>>>
well,
raise it on people making over 200,000 on "capital gains". i bet that would include a few oil speculators.
good for a t.v. ad.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 12:01am
4. He admitted to NPR last week that his proposals will increase the deficit.
<<<<<>>>>>
The shortfalls Obama would produce don't approach the size of the deficits John McCain's budget threatens to bring. The Republican candidate's tax cuts alone would increase the debt by $5 trillion by 2018, compared with $3.4 trillion for Obama, says the Tax Policy Center, another nonpartisan group.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 12:03am
Gore Hits the Waves with a Massive New Houseboat
the s.s. bacon!
The environment guru has a big house, flies in big planes... and now captains a big boat.
the environmental gourd!
August 6, 2008 - by Steve Gill
the fisherman!
Former Vice President Al Gore....
loser, 5-4!
has made a lot of money from the so-called "crisis" of global warming.....
he's not the only one!
best-selling books that tout the looming climatic catastrophe,...
thank you, mr. gore!
movie....
it was pretty good!
that focuses on his "sky is falling" message about a world on the brink of environmental disaster.
uh, he's not the only one! dr. chicken little, ph.d. university of knowing a whole lot more about this than happy or al gore do, told me so!
His business interests have been focused on the profit side of the equation when it comes to "global warming,"
what an inconsiderate boor! have you invested in his company!
creating a "carbon credits" program that has put millions of dollars into the pockets of Gore and his environmental cronies....
cronies! millions! dollars!
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 12:09am
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/06/2008 @ 11:38pm | ignore this person | warn this person
yeah, ya see we're already in debt because a stupid republican administration cut an ass of taxes, presided over a huge budget increase and expensive war...
so now the country is in a pickle. how can the average consumer keep spending more if his/her median income adjusted for inflation goes down - as it has for some time.
1st people stopped saving, then they went credit mad, now they cant spend like idiots anymore...
but the bush class is doing fine - they made plenty of money and can sip martinis while some dem taxes them a little more and the schmuk class suffers some.
hopefully the restoration of law and sane supply/demand economics will set things right, and such may involve slipping a little more into debt until the drop in median income can be halted and reversed.
when you only look at the supply sided you miss half the picture, LL - same for the opposite.
but stupid, illegal, bandit, incompetant republican guidance is always bad in the long run for a good economy.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 08/07/2008 @ 12:11am
There is no question that the alarmism and doomsday scenarios spread by Al Gore have been very, very beneficial to him personally and professionally.
well, congrats al.
...as to whether he actually buys into what he is selling....
hypocrite!
behavior clearly indicates that....he lives by another set of rules himself.
don't we all!
And now, in order to complete his hypocrisy trifecta,...
drumroll.......!
In an amazing display of conspicuous consumption,
i wonder what kind of car this "author" drives!
even for Al Gore,
he doesn't come close to the pentagon!
his new 100-foot houseboat that docks at the Hurricane Marina in Smithville, Tennessee is creating a critical buzz...
probably more than the shitty coor's lite!
With a 500 gallon capacity.....
aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh, bacon.
Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/06/2008 @ 11:58pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 12:12am
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 11:57pm | ignore this person | warn this person
vanity vanity, all is vanity
life is but a sigh...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 08/07/2008 @ 12:30am
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/06/2008 @ 11:38pm
If you actually do the math LVL which most people haven't and compare Obama and McCain's tax plans, McCain is giving huge precentage breaks to people in the top 1.1% and then his tax breaks drop off majorly after that to a negligible amount for the 60% of tax payers. The average middle class person isn't getting more than 1.5-2.5% tax break.
Compare Obama's, he has about the same range for the middle class. 1.5 to 2.5% decrease. The major difference is the raising of taxes on the upper 1.1% only. I hate this perpetuation that Republicans make that Demo's are gasp going to raise taxes. He is lowering taxes on everyone but the upper 1.1%. Would I like to be able to lower taxes evenly sure. But this redistribution of wealth I think is more likely to stimulate the economy. Give the middle class and upper lower class more money to spend on the products made by the companies owned by the rich. The rich make more money because the poor and middle class have more money to spend on things.
I am no economist this is just my opinion. But please stop perpetuating the myth that he is raising taxes across the board.
http://tinyurl.com/5s4l7j
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/07/2008 @ 03:07am
Also, Obama's tax plan is less an actual raise of taxes on the upper 1.1% and more a removal of loopholes. He is making them pay what the government says they should pay and not giving them a way out of it like draft dodgers.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/07/2008 @ 03:08am
hey, that was me. and maybe you, too.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 9:28pm
Somewhere between April and June, I said that gas prices would come down before the election and I also said that they will try to get the oil from Iraq flowing to give credit to McIdiot for pushing W's war.
Even back then, it was the only way McCain appeared to stand a snowballs chance in hell of winning the election.
I recall being chastised heavily by Emile over my comments. He said the prices of gas were there to stay. I responded by saying that yes, they will probably go right back up after the election.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 07:06am
anyhoo, doesn't really matter and now i feel petty.
i probably read it somewhere, probably from the wolfster.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 9:59pm
Frosty, Nothing to feel petty about. We both probably came to the same conclusions just by watching the comedy show going on in D.C. If peoples' weren't effected by the morons we have representing us in D.C., the goings on there would make a good Greek Tragedy, or a commedy show. I can't decide which.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 07:10am
You should be ashamed of yourselves. Please refrain from slandering our heroes unless you've done something by comparison. Obama did not.
Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 5:12pm
Franky, Would you like me to put a list of soldiers who died fighting in the trenches to compare with your pilot's list? How much do you want to bet that numbers would be one hell of a lot skewed against the pilots?
The pilots indeed risk and fly into hot zones, but soldiers on the ground are in the thick of it all of the time. All I was pointing out is that the college educated guys are the pilots and get all of the glory, the guys in the trenches get their arms and legs blown off and don't get the chance (in many cases) even to be taken prisoner like McCain did. They get overun and killed in action.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 07:17am
Ccc-Doing what Frank is doing is bizarre.I can't figure out how anyone could become a politicians cult follower to the degree that Frank is..... Posted by i'm nobody at 08/06/2008 @ 6:16pm
Maybe Frank is actually Hillary, Bill or Chelsea Clinton!! LOL
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 07:24am
If peoples' weren't....
Damn, I need my morning java. Meant to say, if peoples' lives weren't....
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 07:28am
BTW...saved this post from FRANK
("As for the debates, I really don't place much stock in them after what I saw in the democratic primary."---Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 5:08pm)
Guarenteed, McCain and Obama debates in October?
FRANK will declare McCain the winner (regardless) and say that "That's it! Obama was stomped by McCain last night. He'll march to an easy victory now on November 4th!" Totally contradicting his declaration that he "doesn't place much stock in debates"!
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 08:58am
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 08:58am
Yep. Maybe the new Frank is really Rio, Ponti, Liv,Happy or one of the other neocon posters hanging out on the quasi liberal blog site.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 09:44am
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 09:44am
Be a brilliant actor if he was...
LVLIB- the ex-double nought spy evangelical preacher who asks "Who Would Jesus Nuke?"
RIO- "Demon-crat/secular regressive" spouting knee-jerker
PONTI- Self-righteous partisan hack (nearly the same character as RIO, really)
and then FRANKGRITS?!??!!?....pre-2008 loather of all things Republican, anti-Iraq War, disparager of John McCain...
who in a blatent obsession with Hillary Clinton, her ambition, and proving his own egomaniacal claim to "political expertise, now abjectly contradicts almost all his previous stances...
in order to try to "influence" people to vote for McCain (or against Obama really), then put us through FOUR MORE years of crap, just to give She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed her final shot at the Presidency in 2012?
That would beat Heath Ledger as "The Joker" for Oscar performances, I think, WOLF!
heheh
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 11:09am
That would beat Heath Ledger as "The Joker" for Oscar performances, I think, WOLF!
heheh
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 11:09am
Point well taken Mask. I did say, "the new Frank" though, but you make a damn good point. None of the above mentioned would ever utter anything other than complete hatred toward Frank's beloved Hillary!! lol As you pointed out, it would take an Oscar performance to pull that one off by one of them. Then again, Franky is putting on quite a show all by himself.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 11:17am
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 11:17am
Not "The Joker"...more like "Two-Face".
Previously upstanding, fighter for good "Harvey Dent"...then horribly scarred by a "tragedy" (Hillary losing the nomination)...
becomes a super-villain siding on the side of the dark underworld!
heheh
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 12:22pm
You should be ashamed of yourselves. Please refrain from slandering our heroes unless you've done something by comparison. Obama did not.
Posted by frankgrits at 08/06/2008 @ 5:12pm
quisling traitor. you have no authority to call shame on anyone considering your turncoat BS...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 08/07/2008 @ 1:53pm
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 12:22pm
MASK, I'll have to catch up with you on that one. I haven't seen the last two Batman movies so I"m in the dark, but I can definitely see where "Two Face" would fit the bill.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 2:02pm
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 12:22pm
Whoa whoa whoa. You misunderstand the character of Two-Face. Two-face sides with no one. He has no side. He is the personification of chance. He only points the gun. He never fires it. Chance fires it.
Frank is like Mr. Freeze.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/07/2008 @ 2:21pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/07/2008 @ 2:21pm
His wife is dying of a terminal illness (Barack Obama stealing the Presidency from her) and he needs to steal (the election) in order to get the cure (McCain's soon to be failed Presidency) in order to save her (in 2012). He was formerly and upstanding person until he was forced to run with criminals to save his wife from death.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/07/2008 @ 2:31pm
He was formerly and upstanding person until he was forced to run with criminals to save his wife from death.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/07/2008 @ 2:31pm
Good comparison. I especially like the part of having to run with criminals (the republican party) to save his wife (Hillary) who by all accounts is a republican lite candidate.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2008 @ 2:59pm
"Is not this the last that I have chosen? To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free and that ye break every yoke?
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? When thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward."
Isaiah 58:6-8
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/06/2008 @ 11:57pm
Absolutely correct Frosty. That passage is the mission statement of our ministry.
However, it is about individuals giving from their heart. It is not about stealing from people to take care of needs. That defeats the very heart of the message.
That is why the attempts by leftists to somehow suggest that Jesus was a Socialist fall flat against the facts. All of the Bible passages on taking care of the needy (and they are many), are based upon the response of individuals as G-d speaks to their hearts, not by some compulsory tax system.
If you perhaps saw the link I posted about the ministry that we are affiliated under and where I was ordained, you would see that Isaiah 58 is shown as the mission guiding statement and purpose.
http://www.sommerhaven.com/about.html
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/07/2008 @ 7:17pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/07/2008 @ 2:31pm
How about "The Penquin"?....heheh
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 9:12pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/07/2008 @ 7:17pm
LVLIB....did Jesus say "give away all your possessions"?
And tell us why he didn't "really" mean it?
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 9:13pm
i don't go to church.
taxes are a great way to help my brothers and sisters.
when those canadian forces dudes and dudettes went to pakistan after the winter earthquake to set up hospitals,
i was a very proud taxpayer.
and for a nation founded on "god's law" like it says here:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
to not work together to help the needy,
seems to be hypocrisy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 9:25pm
are based upon the response of individuals as G-d speaks to their hearts, not by some compulsory tax system.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/07/2008 @ 7:17pm
but can't people making a tax system work from their hearts?
our tax system works to see that all humans in this land receive good quality medical care.
it's got god's seal of approval (i bet).
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 9:28pm
So Livvy, What is government's role? If it's okay to use my tax dollars to kill civilians in Iraq then it had better, by God, be okay to send a junkie to rehab or pay for some poor slob's heart transplant.
Posted by Pogge at 08/07/2008 @ 9:31pm
Posted by Pogge at 08/07/2008 @ 9:31pm
Again to further update you on LVLIB's postions (and he WON'T correct me on this AT ALL)...
he believes that pretty much everything done on domestic policy by the Federal government since Roosevelt (maybe Teddy...heheh) is bad EXCEPT...
NASA and the Interstate Highway System.
The rest? Quasi-socialist and un-Constitutional.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 10:39pm
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 10:39pm
My uncle, who has no God but Reagan, thinks the CDC is a government plot.
Posted by Pogge at 08/07/2008 @ 10:47pm
NASA and the Interstate Highway System.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 10:39pm
they should combine forces.
imagine,
the I-337,465 from Mare Tranquillitatis to Mare Serenitatis,
5,600 mph in 1/6 gravity,
and david bowie on the radio......
<i>ground control to major larry.....</i>
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 11:22pm
ha!
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 11:22pm
Galactica Burgers and Spock Shakes? The Major Tom Memorial Rest Area? Of course we could go with non-fictional humans, but would it be as appealing to the space consumer?
Anyone remember "Amazon Women on the Moon" where everything was preceded by the "space" adjective. Still one of my all time favorites and Carrie Fisher's finest performance.
Posted by Pogge at 08/07/2008 @ 11:36pm
it's a snaaaaaakkkkkeeee.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 11:39pm
mask!
egad!
here they come!
<<<<>>>>
Win Points for McCain!
Rewards Program for Online Commenters
John McCain's Web site provides suggested talking points and links to blogs.
By Paul Farhi
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 7, 2008
Spread John McCain's official talking points around the Web -- and you could win valuable prizes!
That, in essence, is the McCain campaign's pitch to supporters to join its new online effort, one that combines the features of "AstroTurf" campaigning with the sort of customer-loyalty programs offered by airlines, hotel chains, restaurants and the occasional daily newspaper.
On McCain's Web site, visitors are invited to "Spread the Word" about the presumptive Republican nominee by sending campaign-supplied comments to blogs and Web sites under the visitor's screen name. The site offers sample comments ("John McCain has a comprehensive economic plan . . .") and a list of dozens of suggested destinations, conveniently broken down into "conservative," "liberal," "moderate" and "other" categories. Just cut and paste.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 11:46pm
Activists and political operatives have used volunteers or paid staff to seed radio call-in shows or letters-to-the-editor pages for years, typically without disclosing the caller or letter writer's connection to a candidate or cause. Like the fake grass for which the practice is named, such AstroTurf messages look as though they come from the grass roots but are ersatz.
McCain's campaign has taken the same idea and given it an Internet-era twist. It also has taken the concept one step further.
People who sign up for McCain's program receive reward points each time they place a favorable comment on one of the listed Web sites (subject to verification by McCain's webmasters). The points can be traded for prizes, such as books autographed by McCain, preferred seating at campaign events, even a ride with the candidate on his bus, known as the Straight Talk Express, according to campaign spokesman Brian Rogers.
"Anytime you're getting supporters activated into online communities or taking other actions to spread the word, that's a win," Rogers says.
"Reward points" or other incentives for political work aren't a new concept. The Republican National Committee started a rewards program for volunteer fundraisers several years ago. More recently, Barack Obama's campaign has given small donors and volunteers the chance to win a lunch or dinner with the candidate. (Obama's campaign doesn't have a comment program similar to McCain's.)
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 11:47pm
i wonder what frank is going to redeem his mccainpoints for.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 11:49pm
i bet he'll work extra hard to earn the ride on the bus.
whoooo!!!!!
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 11:50pm
"Is there anybody as tired of paying ... $4 a gallon for gasoline? Is there anybody sick and tired of it? Is there anybody that wants to become energy independent?"
John McCain, Sturgis, South Dakota
<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Robert Bryce: The first president to promote the idea was [Richard] Nixon in the wake of the oil embargo in 1973. In his State of the Union address in 1974, Nixon said that he was aiming for energy independence by the end of the decade. He hoped that by 1980 the U.S. would not be importing any oil. And every president since Nixon, in one way or another, has espoused a similar idea. But if you look back at the data, the U.S. was a net crude oil importer [as early as] 1913 and ever since we've been a net crude importer with a handful of years [as exceptions]. It's remarkable how much the rhetoric about "energy independence" has had no connection with reality.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/08/2008 @ 01:57am
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 11:22pm
Yes, but none of that pinko "solar-powered" Moon cars....
good, honest, decent gasoline-powered (even if we have import the gas AND the oxygen needed to oxygenate the fuel)!
Only hippie tree-huggers don't want our Lunar vehicles powered by gas!!!!!
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/08/2008 @ 09:07am
If you perhaps saw the link I posted about the ministry that we are affiliated under and where I was ordained, you would see that Isaiah 58 is shown as the mission guiding statement and purpose.
http://www.sommerhaven.com/about.html
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/07/2008 @ 7:17pm
I bet you pass the basket, or bucket or whatever around in your church for collections don't you? I have yet to go to any church where that isn't part of the Saturday or Sunday morning ritual. Throw some music in there, sing some holy holies, bless those who donate, and imply those who don't are cheapskates leaching off the church, but of course are still welcome for coffee so you can still have a crack at them for next weeks cash donations or volunteer time. lol.
There isn't an organized church that doesn't try to collect money from it's followers, get them to donate time for it's purposes (not God's necessarily), and go forth and recruit new members by pestering the crap out of people in the neighborhood, or in your churches case, other countries with bribes of food, shelter and so on, if, of course, they play the game and listen to your sermons about what is good and evil.
Being ordained doesn't mean jack Liv. Did God ordain you? Churches are businesses and nothing more.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/08/2008 @ 2:31pm
i wonder what frank is going to redeem his mccainpoints for.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2008 @ 11:49pm
A Hillary Burger
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/08/2008 @ 2:36pm
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/08/2008 @ 2:36pm
Well, it certainly will never be any...
credibility.
I guarentee that poor dumb bastard thinks "when" McCain wins, and then he turns on McCain after a few weeks (and joins the rest of us) that we'll just "forgive and forget" and let him "back in" as "Old FRANK".
And not remember as 2010, 2011 roll around and he starts talking about Queen Jadis....that we'll have "put 2008 behind us".
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/08/2008 @ 4:14pm
well,
it's still a stupid economy.
what do you expect?
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/09/2008 @ 01:14am
LVLIB....did Jesus say "give away all your possessions"?
And tell us why he didn't "really" mean it?
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/07/2008 @ 9:13pm
He said it to a specific person, knowing that the person was boasting of his service to G-d, yet was unwilling to let go of his riches.
It's called context.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/09/2008 @ 01:43am
It's called context.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/09/2008 @ 01:43am
Yessssssssssss...always seems to be, doesn't it?
LOL
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/09/2008 @ 10:07am