Preachers and Politics

posted by Katha Pollitt on 04/30/2008 @ 6:50pm

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For years, Democrats have been trying to shed their secular image in order to appeal to voters who think Jesus is a Republican. As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for, because now, thanks to the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the Democrats have got religion and everything that comes with it -- weirdness, wrath, insult, blowhardiness, vanity, paranoia, divisiveness and trouble. When Barack Obama told the 2004 Democratic convention, "We worship an awesome god in the blue states," this probably wasn't the result he had in mind.

By repudiating Wright Tuesday, Obama missed a chance to call on McCain to turn away from his own problematic clerical helpers. McCain still welcomes the endorsement of the televangelist John Hagee, who has famously attributed Hurricane Katrina to God's wrath at homosexuals, calls the Catholic church "the great whore," claims the Koran commands Muslims to kill Jews and Christians, condemns the Harry Potter books as witchcraft, and wants a world war over Israel, whose most aggressive settlement policies he vigorously supports, because it will precipitate the Second Coming of Christ.

As Sarah Posner lays out in an excellent post for TAPPED, Wright and Hagee have a lot in common. Both believe that chickens come home to roost--in New Orleans, on 9/11--and that God sends them. Both think America is sinful. Both have bizarre ideas with terrible, real-world implications: Hagee wants the US and israel to attack Iran to bring on the end times; Rev. Wright claims the United States government invented the HIV virus "as a means of genocide against people of color."

The fact is, if Wright were a white wingnut, the media--and the voters--would give him the pass they give Hagee- and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and the other radical-right preachers, who say vicious, bigoted, nutty things that violate common sense and common decency all the time. The press portrays these divines in various ways -- respectable men of the cloth or shrewd political operators or occasionally even as crazy old coots-- but it doesn't get anywhere near as worked up about them, or about their closeness to Republican politicians, as it did about Wright. You probably don't even know that McCain accepted the endorsement of the Ohio Pentecostal minister Rod Parsley, campaigned with him in Cincinnati and praised him as a "moral compass" and a "spiritual guide"--Rod Parsley, who in addition to the customary anti-gay obsessions, has described Allah as a "demon spirit" and Islam as a "false religion" the United States was "in part" founded in order to destroy in holy war!

McCain's defenders want the press to make much of the fact that Wright was Obama's pastor for many years, while Hagee and Parsley are not personally close to McCain. Why that is the difference that should matter is beyond me-- why isn't it more important that McCain has sought out these warmongering preachers and specifically said their position on the Middle East is what he likes about them? Pretty scary!

But here's the larger point: If we kept religion out of the election campaign, we could just debate the issues, like rational people. After all, which is less likely, that the HIV virus came out of a government lab, or that the dead will rise from their graves? That Israel is on a course that is not likely to end well, or that God wants more West Bank settlements in order to set off a world war and bring on Christ's return? Empirical claims we can discuss and debate like citizens; religious beliefs, by their very nature, claim immunity from rational analysis. When men whose profession is the latter weigh in on the former, why should anyone take them seriously?

As Barack Obama has perhaps belatedly learned, the Democrats had it right the first time: Awesome,blue-state, red-state, whatever -- keep God out of it, and the men who claim to speak for him, too.

Comments (57)

A secular election? Well, AMEN brother! (ha-ha)

Posted by leftofcenter at 04/30/2008 @ 7:12pm
"The fact is, if Wright were a white wingnut,"!?!? Wright is a wingnut? (black or otherwise)?

Gee, Ms Pollitt apparently you didn't get the office memo from John Nichols on how Wright is a swell guy and Ms vanden Heuvel saying it's the Media's fault!

Posted by Mask at 04/30/2008 @ 8:07pm
This is one of your better posts, Katha, and I am a practicing Buddhist!

Although I subscribe to the socially engaged school of Buddhism, I don't think it is appropriate to push the particular beliefs of one religion on everyone else.

That said, the social gospel of the religious left is appealing. One could only hope that Christianity is associated with the "progressive" Christ who wants to uplift the human condition of the downtrodden, the lepers, and the forgotten. It certainly would be a pleasant change to the war-mongering, judgmental Christian right!

Posted by Metteyya at 04/30/2008 @ 8:18pm
1. Wright and Hagee differ radically over Zionism. One of tghe charges against Wright was printing Hamas literature.

2. Therefore equating both as nutty fanatical religionists ignores the riligious/spiritual character of the issue.

3. This 'secularizes' the war for the Zionist state of Israel, which is sold to the public by the Pope and others as standing in a special relationship to Christians in America;

4. This is conscripted-by-deceit fascist crypto religious statism.

5. Lieberman, Jew, injected G-d into the 2000 race rhetoric contra repubs, whom he later joined. D. Frum, Jew, evilized "the enemy" in Bush's '03 SOTU.

6. The God of Jeremiah Wright and Thomas Jefferson condemns whoever thinks about bombing Iran to hell forever, I do vow by all that I hold true and dear.

What does yours say, Pollitt?

Posted by jones at 04/30/2008 @ 8:24pm
Unfortunately for Katha, religion is part of the world we live in, and is inextricably linked with national and international events as well as lives of most people on Earth. While I do regret the absolute pandering that takes place with respect to religion and elections, the same pandering takes place when candidates try to woo secular voters. The flap over Wright is absolutely abysmal and can be blamed exclusively on the amoral and vindictive nastiness of Hillary Rodham Clinton, who counts among her most fervent worshippers the most extreme and secular of so-called "feminists" in the country. If Hillary Clinton hadn't continued to drag Wright out in front of reporters and TV cameras over and over and over again - why, she was just on O'Reilly's show today, at it again - the manufactured distraction would never have hit the big time. So can you blame "religion" for Jeremiah Wright, at all? The shining scimitar of white upper-class secular "feminists", HRC, is the reason we continue to hear of the priest when obviously so much more pressing issues are at hand.

Posted by Zero at 04/30/2008 @ 8:27pm
Where to begin?

First, as an atheist, it's a bit like shooting fish in a barrel to take down a preacher of any faith system from the angle of basic rationality. But then again, irrationality is not exclusive to the religious. It's a fundamental fact of our human existence. So it's best to be circumspect (at the least) before laying down the machine gun fire of attacks on religious leaders.

That said, I see Wright as more rational than irrational in much of what I've heard him say in his recent appearances, and his "AIDS as a CIA created plague" was not said as a fact, but as speculation --clearly a long reach, but not beyond the pale entirely.

See the excellent piece by Glen Ford at the fine Black Agenda Report for a more level take: http://tinyurl.com/46ec2a

excerpt:

Obama is as quick as any smug corporate commentator to dismiss as the ravings of extremists and those who "prey on hate" the very idea that U.S. imperialism is an historical and current fact. Chickens cannot possibly come home to roost in terroristic revenge as a response to American crimes against humanity, since "good" nations by definition are incapable of such crimes. It is beyond the pale to contemplate that the United States has Dr. Deaths on its covert payrolls dealing in ghastly biological warfare - the AIDS genesis theory.

But I digress. Let's not lose sight of the most important fact that surrounds the largely manufactured Wright controversy. Regardless of the motivations of Reverend Wright (is it really important if he's being self-serving?) , the most stunning action we just witnessed was the unified vilification by our centurions of wisdom --the so-called mainstream media-- of a powerful voice speaking some very painful but undeniable truths.

To wit: THIS NATION IS NOT SOME KIND OF PARAGON OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Sorry for the caps attack, but this should not be news to anyone with their head free from their anus.

We is in deep shit, people. Anyone who can potentially raise awareness of that fact is to be commended not condemned.

I paraphrase the inimitable Frosty Zoom: It's aboot freakin' time we collectively wake the fuck up!

Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/01/2008 @ 01:14am
Clarification above:

Glen Ford's quote is just the first paragraph I copied below the link.

~When are the Nation's web masters going to fix this ridiculous posting keyhole, and lack of basic html functions?

Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/01/2008 @ 01:19am
The problem for Obama is not a religion. It is a racism . He was very comfortable for 20 years in a circle of "dangerous" people, his close anti- American, racists - friends .Obviously Obama appreciated their friendship. And radicals are attracted to Obama. And he was loyal to them. A few months ago he sad that he WILL NOT disassociate himself from his pastor and mentor. HE LACKS the JUDGEMENT ! It could be worst . Media likes Obama He was an enigma for a long time. It is a big lost for Soros, T.Kennedy, J.Kerry. But american people will be out of the toxicity an Obama candidacy. He should go back to the Senat and get the experience . He is sorely lacking in .

Posted by kuk at 05/01/2008 @ 03:10am
Actually, it was Obama who started with all the dopey religious talk in this campaign. Early on, he was yapping about warm fuzzy faith feelings more than anybody--even more than Huckagoof. Obama is the only person in the campaign who ever dedicated a book to a clergyman and made all kinds of faith claims in said book. Now his holier-than-thou (and eliterer-than-thou) attitude is coming back to haunt him. On the surface, Obama exudes thoughtfulness, but dig a little deeper, and one discovers he's pretty damned foolish. We've got a really foolish president right now, and we certainly don't need another one.

Posted by feinfein at 05/01/2008 @ 03:11am
Posted by kuk at 05/1/2008

HTOTD nomination

Posted by Mask at 05/01/2008 @ 07:12am
funny how men keep inventing a God that says what they want him to.

Posted by susanb.red at 05/01/2008 @ 10:13am
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/1/2008

There's truth in them there words. I just don't understand how people like Fallwell and dude from the 700 club(I forget his name) get a free pass but Wright doesn't. They have tv shows and large congregations across the nation. They speak of wanting people killed, that the U.S. deserved 9/11, that the gulf coast was almost destroyed 'cause of gay and lesbianism(not erosion of the delta or global warming but gay people). I guess they don't scare mainstream White America like Wright does. How those idiots get a pass I will never know.

Posted by k330k at 05/01/2008 @ 11:00am
UNLESS....

yer hilly! then you can be a member of THE FAMILY - an evil crypto fascist cabal of powerful, founded by a nazi sympathizer who actively recruited nazis and other repugnant types. but then everyone knows hillary was the fascist goldwater girl picked to succeed the hric (head repugnant in charge) by our satano-aynrando christo-corporate demigods to give the impression of continued democracy!

but the hric was so bad that the lackwit masses actually started listening and following the ttwsth (the thing that wasnt supposed to happen), barry obama! aw shit!!!! gotta stop the ttwsth! the dem we let pretend to be in charge must be our girl! shit! it was a sure thing! first female pres, wife of the guy we obstructed then just went along with us after all!

har har har! obverse democratic fascism - they name is hillary!!!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/01/2008 @ 11:05am
Sounds like a little confusion here. Are you sure you didn't scan one of Daniel de Leon's books?

Posted by Sorelish at 05/1/2008

Don't know who that person is, but I often wonder why white liberals like yourself have no problems quoting slave-owner who freely kept people (my people)in bondage to do as he pleased?

Posted by ACook at 05/01/2008 @ 11:54am
and yes he knew God, even though he was a hindu.

Posted by ACook at 05/1/2008

So, it's possible to "know God"...and NOT be a Jew or Christian?

Posted by Mask at 05/01/2008 @ 12:09pm
So, it's possible to "know God"...and NOT be a Jew or Christian?

Posted by Mask at 05/1/2008

Yes, it is possible, if you have a personal relationship with God the Father. You must remember, Christ was Jewish and yet he broke with many of the old testament teachings. Ghandi did the same thing.

Posted by ACook at 05/01/2008 @ 12:54pm
not insinuating anything for you personally, ACOOK...really...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/01/2008 @ 1:41pm
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/1/2008

What's funny is. I use that simple belief as a statement of the non-existence of God. If you are an all loving, all caring, all forgiving and all powerful being do you REALLY care who believes in you? The fact that Christians belief that the only way to heaven is to believe in God shows that God is a jealous being. If you're perfect you don't have such a very very HUMAN emotion like jealousy. God is a human concept. Religion is a human concept. If God existed he wouldn't give a damn whether you believed in him or not as long as you lived a good life. Mother Theresa and Ghandi would have the same heaven because they both sacrificed so much whether they believe in him or not. Jealousy is a human emotion God wouldn't feel it but it would take a God who experienced jealousy to make the rule that the only way to heaven is to believe in him and no matter how good you are if you don't believe in him you go to Hell.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/01/2008 @ 1:48pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/1/2008 | ignore this person

during my years of teaching i ran across a lot of great little guys and girls.

there was little jimmy. he was a great kid. always did the right thing and always made sure i knew it. constantly in need of validation and doing the right thing because he knew i was watching and wanted to please me.

then there was little skippy. he never hovered around my desk and never seemed to need me to know what he was doing - but from time to time i would catch him doing good, doing the right thing when he had no idea i was watching him...

now i loved both jimmy and skippy and was proud of both - but what kind of small minded egotist would i have been if i favored little jimmy over quietly decent little skippy just because jimmy was a shining kiss ass and skippy did the right thing because just because?

and, for that matter, which was operating on a higher moral level?

according to fundyvangelist christianity god loves most the kiss ass and condemns the quietly, independently good...

ie - its an evil religion worshipping an evil, egotistical "god"...the demiurge og gnostic christian interpretations...

wiki gnosticism - as a bad buddhist its a form of christianity that actually heavily appeals to me and explains the wickedness of mainline nicean christianity nicely...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/01/2008 @ 2:07pm
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/1/2008

It just shows jealousy and egotism. It's too human and it reeks of a human hand in the creation of the concept.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/01/2008 @ 2:16pm
the cathar were gnostics, that is...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/01/2008 @ 2:27pm
The History channel had an episode about the Cathars some time ago. It was a fascinating program.

By the way, I also love The Universe on the History Channel. Funny that Murdoch owns the History Channel, but that's one that I won't boycott because it's one of the very few channels that I watch with any regularity.

Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/01/2008 @ 2:32pm
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/1/2008

You bring up a good point here. God is also a way for us to explain the unexplainable. It's the human fear of the unknown. People are scared of death and birth because before and after these moments we don't know what's happened. We no nothing of the birth of the universe and so we have created these things in order to explain it. Every culture has one it and if you look at the history of all religions the birth of universe usually coincides with what is important to the people. Native Americans believe man sprung from the earth or from rivers depending on the tribe because the land was important to them. Christian believe man sprung from God because it allows them to be stewards of the Earth. Native Americans believed man was a part of the earth therefore he had to live in symbiosis with. Christians believe they are above the rest of the world so they can use it to their advantage no matter the consequences.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/01/2008 @ 2:39pm
Good post, Miss k330k.

The bottom line you hit on is the need for all of us to maintain a cool head and show some decency and mutual understanding of each other --despite our sometimes strongly differing opinions.

Doesn't seem like it ought to be that difficult. It's like that book title of many years back, "All I Really Need to Know I Learned In Kindergarten" --like how to share and be nice to each other.

Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/01/2008 @ 3:11pm
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/1/2008 LOL! You're right about kindergarten. Yeah, good times. Good times.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/1/2008

No need to apologize. I understand where you're coming from. I have alot of friends whose beliefs are in common with yours. No problem at all. I am a catholic but do not agree with some of the principles of the Church. I am pro-choice and don't think all gays are going to hell. I just can't believe that millions of good honest people are going to hell because of their sexual persuasion. One could ask how could i be Catholic considering the long history of evil things sponsored and condoned by the Church. I am Catholic because it is how I choose to worship. I also know that to put your faith in men to lead you instead of inward is faulty judgement at best. I actually hold more reverence for my own pastor than for the pope. I don't know the pope but I do know the good, humorous, down-to-earth person who heads my parish. I don't think anyone if infallible and to think so is very foolish. Just like alot of things, the younger Catholics aren't as blinded by loyalty as our parents and grandparents were. I think we read more. j/k. I don't know but I wish more Christians would be open to learnign about different religions and ideas. I was told in college(Xavier U. of Louisiana. The only Roman-catholic HBCU in the country) by a priest in religious studies class that the bible is an edited version of an edited version of an edited version. I don't think many Christians understand the many hands that the bible, as we know it today, have gone through. It's a shame really.

Great talking with you guys but I've gotta go. Have a good one everybody!

Posted by k330k at 05/01/2008 @ 3:28pm
Peace out, ~B

Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/01/2008 @ 3:34pm
k33ok-No,I wasn't kidding.The god of the Bible believes in slavery and views women as property of men.I was not expressing my views of the Bible,but was pointing out a fact about the Biblical god.The OT is not the Jewish part.Same god that Christians believe in with the exception of gnostic Christians.

Posted by i'm nobody at 05/01/2008 @ 4:02pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/1/2008

No C3, the Bible does not say all non christians are going to hell. Scripture says he will turn away from non-believers because they know him not.

Posted by ACook at 05/01/2008 @ 4:50pm
Christians believe they are above the rest of the world so they can use it to their advantage no matter the consequences.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/1/2008

Where on earth did you read that?

Posted by ACook at 05/01/2008 @ 4:52pm
"so an atheist who does good his/her entire life, self sacrificing, giving, humble and gracious and asks for/expects nothing in return..."

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/1/2008

Eph. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Posted by ACook at 05/01/2008 @ 5:02pm
Posted by ACook at 05/1/2008

It's all given to you in the Christian creation story. Man created in the image and likeness of God and meant to oversee everything on earth. There is even a hierarchy. Man>Woman>Child>Animal.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/01/2008 @ 5:35pm
Posted by ACook at 05/1/2008

You misquoted him. Your passage doesn't disprove his point which was if an atheist does good work his entire life without any expectation of any reward ever when he dies he still goes to hell. The quote you have is about doing God's work. But if you don't believe in God then you are not doing God's work you are doing your own good works.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/01/2008 @ 5:43pm
A good explanation of the fear we all should feel about the absolute insanity of the right wing preachers and the idiocy of the American public with regard to the importance of Rev. Wright's blathering can be read in "It Can Happen Here" Volumes 1 and 2, but especially Vol. 2, by George E. Lowe. Right wing preachers say that it is America's duty as a God fearing nation to do his will, that is, bring about Armageddon. How much crazier than that can you get?

Posted by uknowit at 05/01/2008 @ 6:12pm
Eph. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Posted by ACook at 05/1/2008

EXACTLY! something for nothing amoral evil enabling religion - in the scripture! no wonder evil repugnants flock to it and hide behind it in droves.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/01/2008 @ 7:13pm
"There was no attempt to inform people of nor help people with this hideous disease while it remained in the Black and Gay Community.

Posted by Purple girl at 05/1/2008

PG, in orde to slow the progression of HIV/AIDS in the African-American and Gay communities, they must first accept being responsible for their own behavior. The information is there.

Posted by ACook at 05/01/2008 @ 7:39pm
But know this, those false phophets and teachers will feel God's wrath before the non-believer will.

Posted by ACook at 05/1/2008 | ignore this person

whether there is a god or not those that fail to understand reality for what it is and then purify themselves through bulding merit and avoiding wickedness are doomed to suffer the four big sufferings of birth, illness, ageing, and death, as well as the 80,000+ other sufferings over and over and over for all eternities. how many lives have you lived? if yo were to count all the grains of sand on all the beaches of the world that would not begin to account for them all.

so which one is right, eh?

lets run some scientific tests...oh wait...cant...

its the battle of the ancient pre-scientific tomes!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/01/2008 @ 7:46pm
Christianity, isn't evil, only the people who denagrate are.

Posted by ACook at 05/1/2008

eh...everybody has their opinion. its my opinion that a god (or a religion that paints its god so) that damns saintly atheists to burn in hell forever but lets monsters who experience deathbed conversions into heaven is evil and enables evil.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/01/2008 @ 7:50pm
I would love to herd the pastors back to their day jobs and tell them that endorsements are not the best way to go.

Posted by midnight04 at 05/01/2008 @ 8:11pm
plenty of do overs, though...lol...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/01/2008 @ 8:12pm
yer good at revving me up. you enjoy it dont you? lol...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/1/2008

Absolutely! Now if I can only rev up Frosty and Mask, then my "mission" will be accomplished. hehehe

Posted by ACook at 05/01/2008 @ 8:25pm
Posted by ACook at 05/1/2008 | ignore this person

if god created man in his image...might he not have intended us to use our godly brains to abrogate evil scripture?

lol

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/01/2008 @ 8:37pm
Jealousy is a human emotion God wouldn't feel it but it would take a God who experienced jealousy to make the rule that the only way to heaven is to believe in him and no matter how good you are if you don't believe in him you go to Hell.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/1/2008

So who do you think gets to make the standard, mankind or G-d?

You speak like all the universalists who want to tell G-d what His standards should be.

That is arrogance.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 05/01/2008 @ 8:45pm
lvliberty1

hey, maybe, just maybe, we made up god.

Thursday, May 1, 2008 9:15:16 PM

Posted by frosty zoom at 05/01/2008 @ 9:10pm
"Two topics on which Americans are incapable of rational discussion are 1) religion and 2) race."

~goyadad.

that's why i'm here.

to keep things rational.

Thursday, May 1, 2008 9:19:53 PM

Posted by frosty zoom at 05/01/2008 @ 9:15pm
I had this litle paragraph all written out even though it took me forever because of this tiny box. Unfortunately I got tired and pressed the wrong button and lost it all. I hate the tiny box and I have no idea what the last sentence looks like. I need to see what I've written because I tend to ramble. Anyway, now that I've gotten that out the way, I was asked about sports earlier. In this order, I love NFL, NBA, MLB, tennis, golf, bull-riding(It's the bomb), track-and-field, swimming. I only like certain College football and basketball teams. I will watch figure skating but only during the Olympics. That's it. Oh and The Celtics will go to the Eastern Conference Finals and win. There's more parity in the Western Conference so I'm less sure but I would love a Celtics/Lakers final. Sorry for the off-topic. Back to religion....

Posted by k330k at 05/01/2008 @ 9:56pm
nobody's gonna stop the spurs.....

Posted by frosty zoom at 05/01/2008 @ 10:11pm
hey, maybe, just maybe, we made up god.

Thursday, May 1, 2008 9:15:16 PM

Posted by frosty zoom at 05/1/2008

How about the Sun, the stars, anger, laughter, sunsets and sunrises?

I feel sorry for you Frosty. So intelligent that it's killing you.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 05/01/2008 @ 11:03pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 05/1/2008

I don't think he's dying. Plus I can see the Sun, the star, sunsets and sunrises. I can't see God. That is not a contend-able statement. You may argue you can see the touch of God in other things but you can't see God. A tangible being. So your argument is the argument of a conspiracy theory. If I can see THIS which has nothing to do with THAT it must me THAT exists.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/01/2008 @ 11:13pm
Big stink, your god exists, but only in your mind. Some of your buddies are on the same circuit.

Posted by Sorelish at 05/01/2008 @ 11:59pm
Hey, guys and gals, have any of you read "I Don't Have enough Faith To Be An Atheist" by Geisler? Actually Geisler wrote it with someone else but I forget his name and I don't have the book in front of me. Not a bad read so far. Okay, I'll be honest. It's a little technical and kinda bogs me down with all the science attached. But if you like "The Universe", then you might be intrigued by the book.

I don't mind a politician expressing his/her faith. I don't think that said faith should be used a stick to beat others down with. A politician should also take into consideration the many different people with may different belief systems. I don't think the religious right has been willing to come to an understanding of others beliefs/non-beliefs. Just because I understand your position doesn't mean I personally accept that position as my own. There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. I'm not gay but I'm not going to persecute gay folk because I don't like their lifestyle. I can't judge anybody but I do believe that if I'm not kind and am hateful towards gay folk than that would be like spitting in Jesus's face. In an earlier post, Lvlib mentioned the arrogance of some folk who want to tell God how he should feel and act(Not exactly in those words). i think this kind of think holds true for many on the religious right. they claim to speak for God. they claim to know how God feels about certain issues and how God's gonna act/punish certain people. It's the flip side of the same coin.

Posted by k330k at 05/02/2008 @ 07:42am
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/1/2008 | ignore this person

that'll work. its like earl's concept of "karma" - it works.

the devils always in the details.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/02/2008 @ 07:55am
I'm working on my sermon for Sunday and could not stop reading this blog. This is my first Sunday in a new congregation that I know very little about. After reading all of you entries, I decided that I would preach to a congregation made up of all of the contributors to this blog. That is from the very faithful to the those without faith. Thank you for you contributions. The text from John 17:1-11 ends with: "So that they may be on, as we are one." My sermon focus: How can we be one people when we are so different?

Posted by bergstresse at 05/02/2008 @ 11:58am
Sometimes you need to seek out sources beyond the mainstream for election-related insights. For example: http://www.thenation.com/events/permalink/3860

Posted by coolobserver at 05/02/2008 @ 12:29pm
Posted by bergstresse at 05/2/2008 | ignore this person

which denomination? not sure we can be one people.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/02/2008 @ 2:15pm
Posted by bergstresse at 05/2/2008

have fun!

Posted by frosty zoom at 05/03/2008 @ 12:20am
<i>Kill this! No need to rely on hackneyed sayings of a non-historical personage like the Buddha, or Christ, or.... Neither existed, live with it.

Posted by Euler at 05/3/2008</i>

Wait, really? I'm pretty sure the evidence for Jesus' existence is pretty unassailable, and the evidence for Siddharta Guatama's existence is even MORE unassailable. Seriously?

As for your somewhat Humean empiricism...I'm not sure why this is a good framework. It overlooks common assumptions that we do take on faith, have to take on faith, and feel fully justified in taking on faith (i.e., that other people exist). More importantly, though, what would you regard as evidence here?

Posted by Thrawn at 05/04/2008 @ 8:01pm
Two things.

One, the Establishment Clause...probably kind of important.

Two...the state doesn't get to decide whose beliefs are "irrational."

Posted by Thrawn at 05/06/2008 @ 8:09pm